Ychaudhary

Not sure how this became an argument against an M5 and the GT3 but let me put it to rest having tracked both cars now.

The M5 was predictable, easy to use, and basically a plug and play track car. It was fast as hell but as it has been graciously pointed out the car was a bit hefty. When you put me in my M5 and you put me in my GT3, my time would be better in my M5 just because I know every limit of that car. That doesn't mean its an all encompassing statement that M5's are just as fast as GT3's on a racetrack.

The GT3 was much livelier on the track, it could literally rev all god damn day and still give you more. How Porsche pulled this off, I have no clue. I chalk that up to German sorcery. Given a bit more time and practice in the GT3 I will be light-years ahead of the M5.

Alan Smithee

Nobody is saying the M5 is faster than a 991GT3. The discussion is about how easily approachable the M5 and other M cars are compared to the GT3. Which means that, yes, the GT3 may be slower in the hands of a less experienced driver. It is a fact often lost when couch racing, and is worth discussing IMO.

Manifold

So let's ask a related question. For those who've tracked the 991 GT3, as well as 997 and earlier variants - how does the 991 GT3 compare, what's the learning curve like, how much faster does it feel, etc.?

Nick

I understand that to the uninitiated a front engine car is easier to drive than a car with its engine located behind its rear axle. But this is a GT3 discussion forum and it almost appears with this thread that most people would be faster in a front engine car.

Hoopumpers

Ok, final post on this... I've tracked the turbo M5 at COTA, Chuckwalla, BMW South Carolina, and own one. It's stupid torquey, which means an amateur driver can pass people in the straights. It's an unwieldy beast in the corners, a 4,400lb family sedan that melts rubber quickly. Honestly, to BMW's credit, the suspension is damn good at dealing with the weight, but what's the point? It's not a track car. There's no way in hell a skilled driver is faster in the M5.

Mid engine is where it's at. Rear engine a close second

usctrojanGT3

Lack of a manual transmission is the biggest problem!

911dev

Yeah, me too. Funny thing is he didn't mention one thing that makes this car anything other than what we want. That being a GT3.

Mike in CA

Mind if I ask what experience you've had with the 991 GT3 on the road or track that allows you to reach this conclusion?

kosmo

i agree the P wheel can feel thin especially coming from an M car. I had to adjust and now find it perfect especially w/ gloves on. If anything the M wheel is too thick.

kosmo

i tracked my e39 ONCE. After about 15mins the brakes gave up. It was a fantastic DD but it aint no GT3.
Also i recently drove the m6 Grand coupe . Fast as stink but I dont know how anyone can drive these cars on the track. I felt every bit of its mass. To me it doesnt compare to a gt3 or 991 S, or 997 S....

MaxLTV

I think you are holding yourself back mentally. I drove M3 (e90) A LOT and drove the new M5 a little bit, and even if you drive 991 GT3 just the same as you would have driven the M3, without any changes to account for different architecture, you'd have been faster in GT3 just because of more power per pound. But in GT3 there is much less isolation, and things seem to happen with more intensity, which can make a driver dial down and brake well below threshold, pull fewer Gs in turns etc. - all just because it communicates much more intensely, making you think that you are at or past the limit while there is still plenty left. It's like upgrading brakes on a car gets most people to drive slower at first, because they still use the same braking points and end up slowing down too much before the turn in.

For example, on my way home from BART there is a stop sign with left turn where I often drift it a bit in M3 (just a slight oversteer with correction - nothing fancy). So I tried that in GT3 first time - of course no drift because I was relying on my senses and ended up going ~5mph slower than in M3. So next time I said to myself, I'll ignore everything the car tells me and focus on rear slip angle only and get it to the level I'm used to with M3. I drifted it on the first try then and it was just as easy to control as M3, but of course the sound and vibrations were at the level as if I was about to crash.

So it's just a mental brakes holding you back, not that the car is that much different to drive, IMHO.

Macca

Ive skipped through most of this thread so may be covering old ground here.

The OP feedback is interesting, but not surprising as he is not a previous 911 owner. Nothing on his list I would personally rate as a concern to me.

I had 30 intense days with the car in Dec followed now by 30 days of abstinence (its on a boat travelling from Europe to NZ). Im probably not the typical owner as I have owned a (now highly modified) 993 for 14 years as well as genuine 964RS, 993RS, 996.1 GT3 over that period. These things reset your perspective. The only serious track time I have is in the 993. Same with tarmac rally (Targa).

In terms of disappointments and being brutally honest these are my list of bugbears:

1). Hate the electronic key thingy. Whats wrong with an old fashioned bit of steel.

2). Not a fan of electronic brake. Love how it works but not used to how to put it on and off (doesnt come naturally to me) so maybe just something Ill learn with time.

3). I have sport bucket seats and long legs. Will need to adjust chair with spanner to get correct position. Currently the way I like to drive, when I move form loud pedal to brake pedal my upper leg can touch the wheel - Ive been using LFB instead and that solves the problem but still will adjust the chair a bit to see if I can eliminate this. The wheel does feel small to me as my 993 wheel is bigger.

4). Not a hug fan of standard auto in this car (previously noted). Prefer paddle shift manual at all/most times except city traffic and roads.

5). I found radio crap with my iPod. Maybe I need to play with the settings. I dont have PCM but I do have audio upgrade.

6). Car is designed for LHD so centre console lit access and manual shift lever work in same way as LHD not so great for RHD (i.e. I move shifter away from me to access manual control).

7). It is a larger car feels it at parking speeds (to me based on previous ownership history). It does shrink around you at speed and after a few days I was navigating scary tight windy narrow roads with other traffic with aplomb (my sphincter did still pucker a little from time to time tho LOL!).

In all honestly I cant find any further faults that the above. Everything else (graunching at low speed, chattering of FW and clutch, firm suspension, wing visibility etc) I was already expecting, no surprises or let downs there...

One thing that surprised me very much is that I just hopped into the car and drove it and didn't really notice any of the electronic stuff going on (until I slid it a few times in corners) and finally a week through the ownership experience the electronics showed up in the form of ESC. Remarkable though as per my youtube I wasnt hanging around on those winter European roads and yet it felt like a non assisted car almost all of the time (my 993 only has abs and power steering no TC or anything else).

MaxLTV

Mike, I'd just ignore that. Anyone who drove this car with passion would not be bothered about what happens below 5000RPM - there is just no reason to be there, other than fuel economy. I just do not see many practical scenarios where torque under 5000 would be important in this car. Need more torque - downshift - with PDK-S there is no reason not to downshift.

Mike in CA

It's not like the car has no grunt below 5K; I was pleasantly surprised by low end response, but good advice Max. I didn't really expect an answer anyway...

Macca

From my experience on the road with the car you will do most of your driving (even fast tarmac rally) with this car between 5000-7000 rpm as this is where the meat of the torque is (its pretty flat between these two points with a peak (small hat) at 6250.

To honest I didn't spend much time below 4500, but I did not think it was weak. If you are used to turbo or supercharged engines or huge V8's then sure maybe, but if you are a 911 guy the engines have never been strong until 4500+ (even my old 993)...that's just how you drive them...they aren't designed that way. Show me a turbo or NA large displacement big HP engine that can comfortably roam between 8000-9000 all day long...