TRAKCAR

Thats why they test at Sebring. Feels like Sebring and Road America all rolled into one.

AAHTT

fully agree, the gt3 is the best deal from porsche right now but its funny how Jethro nonchalantly dismisses the difference in tires and asserts that the Gt3 is faster. All of you who have been on a track, know the difference between a treadwear of 80 and a treadwear of 220 even on a short track like this. what a joke.

Macca

It was his email to me you say he "nonchalantly" responded. He didn't. He simply stated that they test cars on the tyres supplied by the manufacturer. They dont have the resources or budget to buy the same type of tyre for every car they borrow for a test (even if the right sizes were available). Makes sense. Every other motoring magazine is teh same.

The 12C Ring time as per the famous Sport Auto magazine was on the option wheels with Pierreli trofos (60 - 80 tread wear) R compounds ("sport tyres") and was 7.28s using their team to test it. So if the 991 GT3 come in at that time or better then you have some form of "like for like" comparison on teh tyres...see link below....expect SA to have 991 GT3 test in 3 weeks time....

http://www.sportauto.de/rundenzeiten...itNS&order=ASC

AAHTT

no, i was referring to the way he said it live in the video. watch the video at 5:50 min.

Macca

Ok Gotcha.

Guess we find out if its really faster than a 12C around the average track over the next few weeks. I expect a full track review second week of Sept from one of the major UK/Euro mags. My guess on something tight and twisty the 991 GT3 will win or be even with a 12C on R compounds. On a longer track (3.5 mile+) with some decent straights the 12C will make its advantage felt on either tyre choice...

Mike in CA

Look at it this way. There's no way to make a test between 2 different production cars like the GT3 and McLaren completely "even". One is rear engine the other is mid. The Porsche has better tires and RWS, the McLaren has 140 more horsepower and active roll bars. Should the testers disconnect all the electronics from both cars, give them the same tires and wheels, and then use an intake restrictor to equalize HP? The Porsche is NA and the McLaren is a turbo; let's equalize for atmospheric pressure since a turbo has an advantage at altitude. Maybe they could also add ballast and change bodywork to give the cars equivalent weight distribution and aero. It would be just like NASCAR.

It would also be an interesting test but it wouldn't be representative of which car, as delivered by the manufacturer off the showroom floor at a given price, is faster. I'm pretty sure that's all most of these magazine reviews are actually about. It may not be a perfect reflection of what each car is ultimately capable of, but it's a realistic comparison and I don't think it warrants claiming foul on the test procedure.

AAHTT

thats correct except that the corsa tires are a factory option on the 12c, you can order one like that and the car would be delivered with them. its not an aftermarket modification.

wanna911

It should not be expected of them to equalize tires. What is expected of them is to provide all of the pertinent information. Instead of embellishing one car and ignoring the fact that tires played the the biggest role in the outcome. And then asserting it to be faster than the GT-R and 4.0 with no real data to support it.

I'm assuming they did a peak at the speedo to determine it cornered faster on the twisty roads since there is no data supplied. That's real scientific. Don't make assertions and don't provide the supporting data to prove it.

Anyone who's paid attention knows that HvS is ALWAYS much closer to Porsche factory times than any other manufacturer. Has always been that way. The discrepancy is huge. He was faster in the 3.8 RS and GT2 than the ZR1 and GT-R. The GT-R I can understand somewhat (based on Nissan's Kamikaze style testing) , but HvS is on the same level of driving skill as Jim Mero, and Jim Mero made mistakes on his 7:26 ZR1 lap, yet HvS was still 12 seconds slower. That's a country mile for him on his home track.

So even still, the supertest is to be taken with a grain of salt. The real tests will come with a pro in the seat on the same day on the same circuit vs the blazing track monsters of today. It can't be avoided forever.

The testers only need supply the readers with the proper information.

Macca

The tyres played the biggest part in equalizing a 140 bhp and almost 200lbft advantage when comparing a McLaren supercar to a Porsche 911?

Lets face it it was a 21 page special feature in Evo magazine to be read for enjoyment not purely empirical lab tested data. They did hook the car up to a PBox on the track but their read world road drives were subjective and in the case of the M12C and 4.0RS they repeatedly stated the GT3 got the power to the ground more consistently and were balanced on these roads.

Im not sure what you expected to read in these early reviews but I think Evo did a pretty good job - the best Ive seen yet in actually stealing the car away for a limited time and putting it up against something interesting by way of comparison...

Manifold

Tires are easily replaced, and get replaced soon anyway if you track a car often, so comparison of lap times needs to be on comparable tires. No need to make hp, suspension, etc. comparable since those things are difficult and/or expensive to change.

That said, I can believe that the GT3 is about as fast as the 12C on comparable tires, on tracks that don't overly give an advantage to more power. I wouldn't be surprised if the 12C was tested with Corsas, and they're comparable to the Dunlops.

And for me personally, it doesn't really matter which of the two is faster, since the GT3 is plenty fast for its price and purpose.

tmg57

Yes.

wanna911

Yes it did, combined with the wheelbase shortening of the RWS vs AWD which isn't all that great on street tires on a tight course. Understeer will KILL your time. Watch Auto-X and you don't see the high hp, big wheelbase, and most AWD cars as dominant. You will most likely get waxed by a civic with skinny tires and a little bit of hp. 996 GT3's are great Auto-X cars, mostly due to smallish wheel bases and lots of rear grip. The fundamentals for success are slightly different.

This track was that (An auto-x) plus one long straight where the MP12 made up a huge gap of time, but still came up short. Imagine how much faster the GT3 was in the twisty bits to negate that 7 mph (I think it was) on the straight. The GT3 then nullified even much of that in the braking zone based on the comments of the editors. That is a function of the tires from the twisty bits to the braking zone to the exit speed onto the front straight. The HP on the McLaren does absolutely nothing in the twisty bits if you can't put the power down on insufficient tires.

Not to mention the MP is turbo, so you have throttle response deficit and power application deficit relative to the NA GT3. That is actually a detriment in small twisty sections. HP for HP, NA is faster.

Like I said, understanding the dynamics of what they are talking about and how it applies means a lot.

Nick

The only thing I understand is the difference in price between the 12C and GT3 is close to $100,000 and their performance is almost on par with one another. When you consider that journalistic reviews of the 12C have universally been exemplary, the GT3 performance/price value is off the charts.

frayed

Bingo.

Nobody here is buying a 991 GT3 to 'race', much less race for money. This car is not a race car; it's a street car.

5 seconds on the 'ring or 1 second on a 2 minute track really doesn't matter to me. And I doubt most buyers care unless you're a died in the wool bench racer.

IMO if you get that caught up in laptimes, you've lost the plot.

Conekilr

0.1 of a second is nothing and I think too much emphasis is being placed on that here.
I was more interested in where and how the GT3 was making up it's time; under braking stability, the ability to go deeper into the turns, handling through the turns and then taking advantage of the rear weight bias to get on the gas sooner on corner exit. I think this is where this car shines and that's what I look for in a sports car over outright speed, not that that hurts..