View Poll Results: MANUAL or PDK?
MANUAL
128
55.90%
PDK-S
101
44.10%
Voters: 229. You may not vote on this poll
POLL : MANUAL or PDK. UPDATED-POLL INCLUDED-PLEASE VOTE.
06-08-2013, 09:18 PM
#91
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: West Los Angeles & Truckee, CA
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The frustrating part about reading RL lately is regardless of which 991 GT3 thread you go to there are enough posters that decide the best way to voice their disappointment is with condescending adolescent comments regarding the other drivers(oops) sorry the C&C people. Sure is easy to do when anonymous. Boring enough that I imagine many will just sign off until the car is launched. Guess someone could say that real drivers track in race cars not street legal cars.
It's kinda disappointing. Actually not too different from when the 991 came out. There are many valid reasons to debate the fact that you may not LOVE the extra length in wheelbase or the fact that there is PDCC or RWS or whatever it is you may not like. Or its too refined, luxurious etc. But there are a small group that take it to a personal / childish level. I'd actually like to hear about PDCC (pros cons etc.), without someone questioning someone's manhood for getting it. As an example.
This is a great community, lets keep it that way. Respect is a good thing to have for others.
06-09-2013, 03:24 AM
#92
Well said..
It's kinda disappointing. Actually not too different from when the 991 came out. There are many valid reasons to debate the fact that you may not LOVE the extra length in wheelbase or the fact that there is PDCC or RWS or whatever it is you may not like. Or its too refined, luxurious etc. But there are a small group that take it to a personal / childish level. I'd actually like to hear about PDCC (pros cons etc.), without someone questioning someone's manhood for getting it. As an example.
This is a great community, lets keep it that way. Respect is a good thing to have for others.
It's kinda disappointing. Actually not too different from when the 991 came out. There are many valid reasons to debate the fact that you may not LOVE the extra length in wheelbase or the fact that there is PDCC or RWS or whatever it is you may not like. Or its too refined, luxurious etc. But there are a small group that take it to a personal / childish level. I'd actually like to hear about PDCC (pros cons etc.), without someone questioning someone's manhood for getting it. As an example.
This is a great community, lets keep it that way. Respect is a good thing to have for others.
However, at 10/10, PDCC starts to have issues. I don't know what it is, but the car becomes very unpredictable, snappy. I suspect its because the PDCC "gives up" at some point and suddenly the car rolls onto the loaded side very suddenly, while already at some slip or even slide.
It also makes the sensation of "the limit" slightly more vague. There is something ACTIVE happening in the suspension whereas you're used to a passive behavior (damping, springs, bars). So its tricky to know what exactly is going on.
Anyway, all of this is irrelevant on the road because you're going to be nowhere near this limit. And I'm not surprised PDCC is not offered on the gt3.
06-09-2013, 08:54 AM
#93
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PDCC is an odd one. When driving at 8/10 or even 9/10, PDCC is really quite good. Keeps the car level, no body roll. In left-right transitions its really very impressive because the car doesn't need to unload and reload like a non-PDCC car.
However, at 10/10, PDCC starts to have issues. I don't know what it is, but the car becomes very unpredictable, snappy. I suspect its because the PDCC "gives up" at some point and suddenly the car rolls onto the loaded side very suddenly, while already at some slip or even slide.
It also makes the sensation of "the limit" slightly more vague. There is something ACTIVE happening in the suspension whereas you're used to a passive behavior (damping, springs, bars). So its tricky to know what exactly is going on.
Anyway, all of this is irrelevant on the road because you're going to be nowhere near this limit. And I'm not surprised PDCC is not offered on the gt3.
However, at 10/10, PDCC starts to have issues. I don't know what it is, but the car becomes very unpredictable, snappy. I suspect its because the PDCC "gives up" at some point and suddenly the car rolls onto the loaded side very suddenly, while already at some slip or even slide.
It also makes the sensation of "the limit" slightly more vague. There is something ACTIVE happening in the suspension whereas you're used to a passive behavior (damping, springs, bars). So its tricky to know what exactly is going on.
Anyway, all of this is irrelevant on the road because you're going to be nowhere near this limit. And I'm not surprised PDCC is not offered on the gt3.
. I'm a no pdcc guy in a sports car.
06-09-2013, 09:08 AM
#94
PDCC is an odd one. When driving at 8/10 or even 9/10, PDCC is really quite good. Keeps the car level, no body roll. In left-right transitions its really very impressive because the car doesn't need to unload and reload like a non-PDCC car.
However, at 10/10, PDCC starts to have issues. I don't know what it is, but the car becomes very unpredictable, snappy. I suspect its because the PDCC "gives up" at some point and suddenly the car rolls onto the loaded side very suddenly, while already at some slip or even slide.
It also makes the sensation of "the limit" slightly more vague. There is something ACTIVE happening in the suspension whereas you're used to a passive behavior (damping, springs, bars). So its tricky to know what exactly is going on.
Anyway, all of this is irrelevant on the road because you're going to be nowhere near this limit. And I'm not surprised PDCC is not offered on the gt3.
However, at 10/10, PDCC starts to have issues. I don't know what it is, but the car becomes very unpredictable, snappy. I suspect its because the PDCC "gives up" at some point and suddenly the car rolls onto the loaded side very suddenly, while already at some slip or even slide.
It also makes the sensation of "the limit" slightly more vague. There is something ACTIVE happening in the suspension whereas you're used to a passive behavior (damping, springs, bars). So its tricky to know what exactly is going on.
Anyway, all of this is irrelevant on the road because you're going to be nowhere near this limit. And I'm not surprised PDCC is not offered on the gt3.
Last edited by 911dev; 06-09-2013 at 01:50 PM.
06-09-2013, 12:37 PM
#95
Burning Brakes
without it. ALL of the record laptimes run by Porsche have been on PDCC equipped cars where that option is available. The justification from Porsche for omitting it on the GT3 is that it is a complex system and adds weight and the GT3 has much stronger springs and therefore does not lean much anyway and ride quality is secondary anyway. Talking to the Porsche Experience training people, they note that the tire wear is FAR less with PDCC, and the ride is more supple and compliant since the roll bars are in a relaxed state in normal driving, yet tighten up in Milliseconds when needed to apply sufficient Torque to each wheel that needs it to keep it in contact with the road.
I find it hugely advantageous on the track in keeping the contact patch in contact around turns. I've never met anyone who actually has PDCC that does not love it.
06-09-2013, 01:50 PM
#96
Burning Brakes
PDCC is an odd one. When driving at 8/10 or even 9/10, PDCC is really quite good. Keeps the car level, no body roll. In left-right transitions its really very impressive because the car doesn't need to unload and reload like a non-PDCC car.
However, at 10/10, PDCC starts to have issues. I don't know what it is, but the car becomes very unpredictable, snappy. I suspect its because the PDCC "gives up" at some point and suddenly the car rolls onto the loaded side very suddenly, while already at some slip or even slide.
It also makes the sensation of "the limit" slightly more vague. There is something ACTIVE happening in the suspension whereas you're used to a passive behavior (damping, springs, bars). So its tricky to know what exactly is going on.
Anyway, all of this is irrelevant on the road because you're going to be nowhere near this limit. And I'm not surprised PDCC is not offered on the gt3.
However, at 10/10, PDCC starts to have issues. I don't know what it is, but the car becomes very unpredictable, snappy. I suspect its because the PDCC "gives up" at some point and suddenly the car rolls onto the loaded side very suddenly, while already at some slip or even slide.
It also makes the sensation of "the limit" slightly more vague. There is something ACTIVE happening in the suspension whereas you're used to a passive behavior (damping, springs, bars). So its tricky to know what exactly is going on.
Anyway, all of this is irrelevant on the road because you're going to be nowhere near this limit. And I'm not surprised PDCC is not offered on the gt3.
rather than PDCC. Not sure how you define "!0/10" but if you define it as sliding
across the track, I have never noticed the effect you describe with PDCC. The car has always remained far more controllable than non-pdcc equipped cars
I have driven and raced.
Here are some Videos showing a comparison of 997 models with and without PDCC during Slalom and turning through curves. The 991 PDCC has been
developed further and is even better. During MT testing, they noted the 991 PDCC Carrera S had so little lean they thought their measuring equipment was broken. Note PDCC is standard on the new Turbo S and offered optionally
on the TT. It was used on all Porsche's Nurburgring record runs which came as close to 10/10 as any of us will likely see.
06-09-2013, 01:56 PM
#97
If the car is behaving unpredictably or snappy at 10/10, I would suspect tires
rather than PDCC. Not sure how you define "!0/10" but if you define it as sliding
across the track, I have never noticed the effect you describe with PDCC. The car has always remained far more controllable than non-pdcc equipped cars
I have driven and raced.
Here are some Videos showing a comparison of 997 models with and without PDCC during Slalom and turning through curves. The 991 PDCC has been
developed further and is even better. During MT testing, they noted the 991 PDCC Carrera S had so little lean they thought their measuring equipment was broken. Note PDCC is standard on the new Turbo S and offered optionally
on the TT. It was used on all Porsche's Nurburgring record runs which came as close to 10/10 as any of us will likely see.
Porsche 911 991 vs 911 997 comparativa PDCC en slalom - YouTube
Porsche 911 991 vs 911 997 comparativa PDCC en curva - YouTube
rather than PDCC. Not sure how you define "!0/10" but if you define it as sliding
across the track, I have never noticed the effect you describe with PDCC. The car has always remained far more controllable than non-pdcc equipped cars
I have driven and raced.
Here are some Videos showing a comparison of 997 models with and without PDCC during Slalom and turning through curves. The 991 PDCC has been
developed further and is even better. During MT testing, they noted the 991 PDCC Carrera S had so little lean they thought their measuring equipment was broken. Note PDCC is standard on the new Turbo S and offered optionally
on the TT. It was used on all Porsche's Nurburgring record runs which came as close to 10/10 as any of us will likely see.
Porsche 911 991 vs 911 997 comparativa PDCC en slalom - YouTube
Porsche 911 991 vs 911 997 comparativa PDCC en curva - YouTube
06-10-2013, 06:37 AM
#99
If the car is behaving unpredictably or snappy at 10/10, I would suspect tires
rather than PDCC. Not sure how you define "!0/10" but if you define it as sliding
across the track, I have never noticed the effect you describe with PDCC. The car has always remained far more controllable than non-pdcc equipped cars
I have driven and raced.
Here are some Videos showing a comparison of 997 models with and without PDCC during Slalom and turning through curves. The 991 PDCC has been
developed further and is even better. During MT testing, they noted the 991 PDCC Carrera S had so little lean they thought their measuring equipment was broken. Note PDCC is standard on the new Turbo S and offered optionally
on the TT. It was used on all Porsche's Nurburgring record runs which came as close to 10/10 as any of us will likely see.
Porsche 911 991 vs 911 997 comparativa PDCC en slalom - YouTube
Porsche 911 991 vs 911 997 comparativa PDCC en curva - YouTube
rather than PDCC. Not sure how you define "!0/10" but if you define it as sliding
across the track, I have never noticed the effect you describe with PDCC. The car has always remained far more controllable than non-pdcc equipped cars
I have driven and raced.
Here are some Videos showing a comparison of 997 models with and without PDCC during Slalom and turning through curves. The 991 PDCC has been
developed further and is even better. During MT testing, they noted the 991 PDCC Carrera S had so little lean they thought their measuring equipment was broken. Note PDCC is standard on the new Turbo S and offered optionally
on the TT. It was used on all Porsche's Nurburgring record runs which came as close to 10/10 as any of us will likely see.
Porsche 911 991 vs 911 997 comparativa PDCC en slalom - YouTube
Porsche 911 991 vs 911 997 comparativa PDCC en curva - YouTube
I haven't raced a PDCC car. I have tracked one and didn't like it. I cannot rule out that it was a tire problem as you've suggested, so maybe it was a one off.
Porsche marketing videos aren't really evidence of anything to me, nor is Nurburgring laptime. The 'ring is so specific in asphalt and setup. Quick at the ring is not necessarily quick elsewhere (from a setup point of view).
Time will tell which is better. However, PDCC is similar in concept to Active Suspension (from the 94 Williams F1 car), and we saw that when done correctly, it makes the car unbeatable. So, concept and application... is the difference between good ideas and bad I guess.
06-10-2013, 12:44 PM
#100
Burning Brakes
Hi
I haven't raced a PDCC car. I have tracked one and didn't like it. I cannot rule out that it was a tire problem as you've suggested, so maybe it was a one off.
Porsche marketing videos aren't really evidence of anything to me, nor is Nurburgring laptime. The 'ring is so specific in asphalt and setup. Quick at the ring is not necessarily quick elsewhere (from a setup point of view).
Time will tell which is better. However, PDCC is similar in concept to Active Suspension (from the 94 Williams F1 car), and we saw that when done correctly, it makes the car unbeatable. So, concept and application... is the difference between good ideas and bad I guess.
I haven't raced a PDCC car. I have tracked one and didn't like it. I cannot rule out that it was a tire problem as you've suggested, so maybe it was a one off.
Porsche marketing videos aren't really evidence of anything to me, nor is Nurburgring laptime. The 'ring is so specific in asphalt and setup. Quick at the ring is not necessarily quick elsewhere (from a setup point of view).
Time will tell which is better. However, PDCC is similar in concept to Active Suspension (from the 94 Williams F1 car), and we saw that when done correctly, it makes the car unbeatable. So, concept and application... is the difference between good ideas and bad I guess.
I bought the "Go-Fast" options on my C2S after consulting extensively with the top instructors from the Porsche Experience asking them which options would produce the lowest lap times. They recommended PDCC in conjunction with
Sports PASM, which is Porsche's Active Suspension Management. The Sport Version of PASM has stiffer springs and a lower chassis height. My comments were based on running those two options together with "Sport Plus"
selected for track use. I've been delighted with the combination as it comes close to the "Holy Grail" of Sports Cars: Comfortable ride with relaxed roll bars
as a DD and a taut GT3-like ride on the track and winding roads.
06-10-2013, 03:03 PM
#101
Race Director
PDCC is an odd one. When driving at 8/10 or even 9/10, PDCC is really quite good. Keeps the car level, no body roll. In left-right transitions its really very impressive because the car doesn't need to unload and reload like a non-PDCC car.
However, at 10/10, PDCC starts to have issues. I don't know what it is, but the car becomes very unpredictable, snappy. I suspect its because the PDCC "gives up" at some point and suddenly the car rolls onto the loaded side very suddenly, while already at some slip or even slide.
It also makes the sensation of "the limit" slightly more vague. There is something ACTIVE happening in the suspension whereas you're used to a passive behavior (damping, springs, bars). So its tricky to know what exactly is going on.
Anyway, all of this is irrelevant on the road because you're going to be nowhere near this limit. And I'm not surprised PDCC is not offered on the gt3.
However, at 10/10, PDCC starts to have issues. I don't know what it is, but the car becomes very unpredictable, snappy. I suspect its because the PDCC "gives up" at some point and suddenly the car rolls onto the loaded side very suddenly, while already at some slip or even slide.
It also makes the sensation of "the limit" slightly more vague. There is something ACTIVE happening in the suspension whereas you're used to a passive behavior (damping, springs, bars). So its tricky to know what exactly is going on.
Anyway, all of this is irrelevant on the road because you're going to be nowhere near this limit. And I'm not surprised PDCC is not offered on the gt3.
I think there's definitely a place for PDCC in the larger cars, especially the Cayenne. Maybe the Carrera too. I can understand, though, why they felt it unnecessary on the GT3.
06-10-2013, 07:20 PM
#102
Rennlist Member
I'm waiting for...
The 992 GT3 which will have PCM-S which allows you to select 'Walter Rohl' mode on the nav and have the car drive itself around the Ring lapping like the king ... that way I will be faster (or just as fast) as the fastest drivers there!
you heard it here 1st!
you heard it here 1st!
06-10-2013, 07:23 PM
#103
Rennlist Member
Very interestng. I've not driven a Carrera with PDCC so I can't comment on that. I do have PDCC/PASM on my Cayenne S and had a chance recently to compare it back to back with a loaner base Panamera that did not have it but did have PASM. Amazingly, the Cayenne, which also has PTV+, turns in more precisely and responsively with better grip and control than the Panamera. (Full disclosure; the Panamera had 255's on 19" wheels while my Cayenne has 275's on 20's.)
I think there's definitely a place for PDCC in the larger cars, especially the Cayenne. Maybe the Carrera too. I can understand, though, why they felt it unnecessary on the GT3.
I think there's definitely a place for PDCC in the larger cars, especially the Cayenne. Maybe the Carrera too. I can understand, though, why they felt it unnecessary on the GT3.
06-14-2013, 01:43 PM
#105
Burning Brakes
Just had this idea : Let's say Porsche decided to offer a choice...maybe for the RS or for the 991.2 GT3.
Let's vote! How many here would choose MANUAL over PDK or the other way around and perhaps you can elaborate why... Keep in mind when choosing that you might get better lap times with PDK and we can go as far as to say the MANUAL will be an extra cost option.
Please no argument,let's just vote!
Thank you!
Let's vote! How many here would choose MANUAL over PDK or the other way around and perhaps you can elaborate why... Keep in mind when choosing that you might get better lap times with PDK and we can go as far as to say the MANUAL will be an extra cost option.
Please no argument,let's just vote!
Thank you!
over the PDK if they were to order a 991 GT3.
Any 991 MT users out there that could comment?