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If you want to understand what performance is and what a big difference is being talked about - read below, this is real data - not guesswork - not feelz.
Thanks for noting: "from my perspective". You are certainly entitled to your opinions and to buy cars you like. Few here will be taking their "supercars" to the "ring". Correcting an oversteer at 40MPH in a non super car is fine and fun for me. Don't need the terror of trying that at 120mph in a GT2RS. And I respectfully disagree the GTS is a better road car. That's my perspective. As for your "GT4 purchase groups", I have not come from another marque like BMW and currently own several GT3 variants at higher price point. In fact this board is loaded with GT3 and other 911 owners that have purchased or shown interest in the GT4. Your generalities "offer no real understanding...other than a theoretical perspective that's oft worthless..."
"Few here will be taking their supercars to the ring" that really is a function of the people you know....................(GT3 and RS are not supercars, 720S, 765LT, Pista etc are)
My generalities are exactly that, generalities, it doesn't mean they're inaccurate. The brutal reality is shown in the table above - compared to real performance cars the GT4 is lacking, the BS from the many string gloved GT4 owners is largely nonsense, no the GT4 can't carry the corner speed of something like a RS or GT3, no it can't pull the lateral Gs, no it doesn't have the straight line speed, no it doesn't have the acceleration - all of this is internet nonsense and all of the measurable parameters translate into the overall driving experience. Moreover, you don't need to be on a track to understand this and feel the outcomes.
The OP put a position forward, I agree with it and can explain exactly why and also demonstrate it with facts not journalistic BS.
So at least make an effort to put up facts to defend a position - there are a lot of people that own GT cars, it doesn't mean they know what the limits are or have experienced them to their full capabilities regularly. In fact most do little more than DE days, which is of course entirely their choice. Likewise it limits their understanding of these cars and the full dynamic range some of these vehicles are capable.
To put it succinctly the GT4 is disappointing in terms of performance to those that value and put a premium on actual performance. In this regard the GT4 is overblown (by journalists who don't even own the car) and underdone (as the metrics clearly show) - moreover, its easy to show that. The facts, as opposed to the conjecture of a few on here, clearly support that position.
So you don't think EVERY car Porsche makes isn't compromised to a price point?
Yes I do - but the reality is performance costs and track emphasis is a very misplaced concept for most road cars.
The only reason I own the RS is because its a good base for a tarmac rally car and it fits the regulatory requirements for a national series - thats all its used for. Pseudo race cars for the road are a marketing tool to sell more cars - hence virtually every BMW is covered in M car badges, likewise AMG on Mercs - Porsche largely resisted that trend but went the other way e.g. maximising production of GT cars.
And thus and again from my perspective the GT4 doesn't light any fuses for me - its not a great motorsport base car (the engine, the suspension and the gear box simply need to much work to turn it into something competitive - hence for track - Cup car) and its not really a great road car because you can't extract any meaningful performance out of a car on open public roads.
For reference, I had money down on the 718 GT4 and still do on the 4RS - I declined the GT4 (the data shows the 718 puts down similar to marginally better corner speed and better long straight speeds - certainly not night and day - no surprise there) and the 4RS will need some significant improvement for a purchase to be considered.
Last edited by groundhog; 04-13-2021 at 08:36 AM.
Reason: addendum
If you want to understand what performance is and what a big difference is being talked about - read below, this is real data - not guesswork - not feelz.
Enjoy
So a GT3 RS is faster than GT4? Absolutely flabbergasted, truly enlightening stuff. All us poor ex-BMW peasants with GT4's should sell them now and buy Maclarens.
Perhaps if you spent less time looking at spec sheets and more time actually driving, you'd realize a cars worth isn't determined by how fast someone else can drive it around a track. You are clearly desperate to prove your superiority though so by all means keep going. .
So a GT3 RS is faster than GT4? Absolutely flabbergasted, truly enlightening stuff. All us poor ex-BMW peasants with GT4's should sell them now and buy Maclarens.
Perhaps if you spent less time looking at spec sheets and more time actually driving, you'd realize a cars worth isn't determined by how fast someone else can drive it around a track. You are clearly desperate to prove your superiority though so by all means keep going. .
Seriously! And it's not like the GT4 is some track slouch either... 7:30 N-ring time with manual, PDK estimated to be about 8 secs faster...putting it it similar to 991.1 GT3 territory and that's before using Cup R tires (which I suspect was used for the RS in that painstakingly curated chart). On most tracks it's right where the GT350R, the 911.1 GT3 is but in a smaller, more nimble package and a good price point where the experience isn't replicated by really any competitor. Sure, I'm thrilled to be owning "God's Chariot", namely the RS, but spending this much time denying how good universally acclaimed car such as the GT4 is getting preposterous. Talk about low opportunity cost of time!
And thus and again from my perspective the GT4 doesn't light any fuses for me - its not a great motorsport base car (the engine, the suspension and the gear box simply need to much work to turn it into something competitive - hence for track - Cup car) and its not really a great road car because you can't extract any meaningful performance out of a car on open public roads.
For reference, I had money down on the 718 GT4 and still do on the 4RS - I declined the GT4 (the data shows the 718 puts down similar to marginally better corner speed and better long straight speeds - certainly not night and day - no surprise there) and the 4RS will need some significant improvement for a purchase to be considered.
My street car is a GT2RS and my primary race cars are GT4 Clubsport MRs. To say the GT4 is not a good basis for a race car is completely untrue. The Clubsport I co-own for endurance racing was so good and so fun, we bought 2 more for sprint racing! The Clubsport feels just as much of a factory built race car as any of the cups, not surprising considering how much is shares with with 991.1 cup.
My street car is a GT2RS and my primary race cars are GT4 Clubsport MRs. To say the GT4 is not a good basis for a race car is completely untrue. The Clubsport I co-own for endurance racing was so good and so fun, we bought 2 more for sprint racing! The Clubsport feels just as much of a factory built race car as any of the cups, not surprising considering how much is shares with with 991.1 cup.
Its completely true - you purchased a factory built race car, exactly akin to buying a Cup car. Try doing that with the OTS GT4 - yes you could ultimately do it - but few do, why because the OTS base isn't that good. You literally have to remove everything, change or modify most of it and start again.
So a GT3 RS is faster than GT4? Absolutely flabbergasted, truly enlightening stuff. All us poor ex-BMW peasants with GT4's should sell them now and buy Maclarens.
Perhaps if you spent less time looking at spec sheets and more time actually driving, you'd realize a cars worth isn't determined by how fast someone else can drive it around a track. You are clearly desperate to prove your superiority though so by all means keep going. .
LOL - I could show you my trophy cabinet if you like or friction circles, arranged by track? or lap/stage logs or event pace notes or........just refer you to the thread title "test drove a 718 GT4" and the OPs initial comment - which was, he was disappointed by it. Thats what I was responding to and why I dropped some evidence to explain why. The differences are large, you're exactly right it is amazing that people can't tell or don't know - but thats the internet for you. The thread is about relative view points and why those viewpoints exist.
For you coming from any BMW into a GT4 will likely be a revelation - for me going from a RS or 720S into a GT4 isn't a magical experience. Why would it be, they are leagues apart in performance, design and price tag. Yet there are still many on here who will come up with internet nonsense e.g. better corner speed due to mid-engined layout blah blah blah...........nope corner speed is defined by grip, the more grip a car can put down the quicker it can go round a corner - and thats what the data shows. Believe it or not, the greater level of performance - the greater the price tag.
Perhaps you should try a McLaren or RS or GT3 and do a comparison write-up. You may learn something or you may not.
Better questions may be (1) does the 718 GT4 punch above its weight (2) is the GT4 great bang for buck or (3) Is the the 718 GT4 a move up from the 981 GT4...........
LOL - I could show you my trophy cabinet if you like or friction circles, arranged by track? or lap/stage logs or.........just refer you to the thread title "test drove a 718 GT4" and the OPs initial comment - which was, he was disappointed by it. Thats what I was responding to and why I dropped some evidence to explain why. The differences are large, you're exactly right it is amazing that people can't tell or don't know - but thats the internet for you. The thread is about relative view points and why those viewpoints exist.
For you coming from any BMW into a GT4 will be a revelation - for me going from a RS or 720S into a GT4 isn't a magical experience. Why would it be, they are leagues apart in performance, design and price tag. Yet there are still many on here who will come up with internet nonsense e.g. better corner speed due to mid-engined layout blah blah blah...........nope corner speed is defined by grip, the more grip a car can put down the quicker it can go round a corner - and thats what the data shows. Believe it or not, the greater level of performance - the greater the price tag.
Perhaps you should try a McLaren or RS or GT3 and do a comparison write-up. You may learn something or you may not.
Cool seeing as you offered, post a picture your participation trophy cabinet. I suspect you are a a 'gentleman driver', minus the gentleman.
The single biggest variable in grip is tire. What lap time does a GT3 RS do on 245/295 Cup2's? You are obsessed with lap times so I assume you have a spreadsheet to share.
Your myopic version of a 'viewpoint' is actually just a load of supercilious drivel. It's possible to state a point of view without diminishing others, everyone is coming to the table with different experiences. That nuance is clearly lost on you, establishing you are the defacto authority on everything you do in life must get very tiring. Ask your therapist if its borne from insecurity, will give them a nice framework for your next 20 sessions of misery.
Maybe it's been said, but the 981 GT4 was so popular because it had a manual and the 991.1 GT3 did not. That's why I bought one. The moment I heard the 991.2 GT3 was going to a manual - I sold mine back to the dealer that got me an MSRP PTS allocation for my winged GT3.
The GT4 is a great car in its class... but I would not daily drive it and nor would I compare it to a GT3.
Cool seeing as you offered, post a picture your participation trophy cabinet. I suspect you are a a 'gentleman driver', minus the gentleman.
The single biggest variable in grip is tire. What lap time does a GT3 RS do on 245/295 Cup2's? You are obsessed with lap times so I assume you have a spreadsheet to share.
Your myopic version of a 'viewpoint' is actually just a load of supercilious drivel. It's possible to state a point of view without diminishing others, everyone is coming to the table with different experiences. That nuance is clearly lost on you, establishing you are the defacto authority on everything you do in life must get very tiring. Ask your therapist if its borne from insecurity, will give them a nice framework for your next 20 sessions of misery.
LOL - thats the point, there are different viewpoints based on different ownership experiences and driving capabilities - unfortunately you don't seem to understand that. You think you bought some sort of driving nirvana and it may be that way for you, likewise others have different views on that. Trying posting something factual to help your case. Try being open minded you'll find its liberating. Perhaps ask a few 981 GT4 owners what they think - because I can tell you this, the difference in corner speed between the 2 is negligible.
Didn't see any laptimes in the table I posted lol, just corner speeds, g, decel and straight speeds. Some of the variables that contribute to overall performance, the sort of information that track enthusiasts are often interested in - try logging your GT4 and post up a friction circle. There are quite a few people on here who'll be able to give you a quick analysis and tell you what you're doing wrong. Of course I won't help you, as I'm not a "gentleman" driver
itsagoose: "Drove a 718 GT4. I was underwhelmed as it felt nowhere near the thrilling experience of my GT3."
groundhog: "The GT4 is basically a turd. Its performance pales in comparison to the likes of the GT3RS, 720S, and other TRULY fast cars. I have data to prove this point."
everyone else: "The GT4 is a great car in its class."
itsagoose: "Drove a 718 GT4. I was underwhelmed as it felt nowhere near the thrilling experience of my GT3."
groundhog: "The GT4 is basically a turd. Its performance pales in comparison to the likes of the GT3RS, 720S, and other TRULY fast cars. I have data to prove this point."
everyone else: "The GT4 is a great car in its class."
LOL as I said its a relativist position - you forgot that little piece of information and its a rather important piece of information too . Equally if you get out of a GT4 into an Alpine you'll think thats a big downgrade and on it goes.
That was the whole point of this thread...........if you have significant exposure to high - performance cars, the 718 GT4 doesn't feel special - which part of that don't you understand or can't comprehend.
Here's another truth, and its one oft cited by 981 GT4 owners - despite the marketing, the 718 GT4 is a 981 GT4 with a different engine..................one that only adds HP at the top end, as the torque elsewhere is the same (420Nm peak/manual). As a consequence they go round corners at similar speeds, with similar grip levels with the 718 GT4 being marginally faster on a long straight.
Its barely evolved.
In effect, its a 2015 car sold in 2021 with a nice price hike, lots of marketing and a 40HP gain over the smallest of rev windows - thats why its being over looked for the Spyder (really nice car and a bit different and fully worked over) and the 4L GTS which is an extremely well sorted and genuinely good road car (40Nm increase in torque and 70HP increase in peak HP - importantly the increase in torque is across the full curve relative to the 981 and thus there is a commensurate power lift across the whole curve as well as the top end).
GT4 is ok at it's price point, well the 981 was
the 718 feels too expensive for that **** gear box.
AT the end of the day the GT4 is flawed with an old gear box and fixed rear suspension !!! , spend £6k on that with D-man and you have a very nice drivers car but now just about at 2nf hand GT3 money !.
I have also owned the GT4's, Spyder's and now own the 991.2 GT3 Manual, you cannot compare a GT4 to a GT3 really. so as I said the 718 with it's new price point and no rear adjustments and that old gear box is not the value the 981 was.
981 was a great car for the money "FOR THE MONEY" the 718 is NOT a great car for the money, but still is a great car if you get the meaning.
the 991.2 GT3 in manual is a great car again for the money and that engine is worth the entry point alone over the 718 and that gear box and ratio's are very very sweet on the GT3 now.
04-13-2021, 02:15 AM
or friction circles, arranged by track? or lap/stage logs or event pace notes or........just refer you to the thread title "test drove a 718 GT4" and the OPs initial comment - which was, he was disappointed by it. Thats what I was responding to and why I dropped some evidence to explain why. The differences are large, you're exactly right it is amazing that people can't tell or don't know - but thats the internet for you. The thread is about relative view points and why those viewpoints exist.
