Notices
991 GT3, GT3RS, GT2RS and 911R 2012-2019
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Touring with Surface Transform (carbon ceramic) rotors

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 09-28-2021, 11:20 AM
  #31  
Nordschleifers
Intermediate
 
Nordschleifers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 34
Received 25 Likes on 9 Posts
Default

Thanks Jeff. It's an endless debate it seems. I run a little Porsche enthusiasts club at the Ring. All are various flavours of 997 & 991 GT3, and me, the black sheep who insists on being comfortable for my drive on to eat good food in Italy after a track session

We all know each other's driving intimately now, and this year we started allowing each other to drive each others cars. No holds barred. Aside from everyone being annoyed with themselves for loving the way the Turbo drives waaaaaay more than they had convinced themselves they would, the thing that got the most discussion was just how EPIC PCCBs are compared to all their Endless/AP Racing etc etc steel upgrades. It's the way they never change in feel after any number of laps, for sure, but there are subtleties to really knowing the Ring.
For example, a full attack run down the hill from Kallenhard to Breidscheid will leave even the best steel brakes feeling a little exhausted as you brake into the bridge. With the PCCBs though, it feels almost as though you're just slowing for a junction on the way to the shops. It's like they just don't even notice you've just dropped well over 600ft in little over a mile, hauling yourself almost to a stop in Wehrseifen on the way down! I've done well over a thousand laps on steel brakes (AP amongst them and indeed probably still my favourites) but I still get excited by the 'new' experience of PCCB going down that hill. (amongst many other spots obvs).

I have no doubt your brakes are as good as steel can get. And feel incredible to use. And weigh less than other steels etc etc. And Way back in the days of me tracking an E39 M5 (don't ask!) the engineers at AP and I were on first name terms. You could not wish to deal with smarter, nicer and more helpful people. Seriously. But let me ask you this... when's the last time you saw anyone wearing wool clothing to the artic?

Tech moves on. Relentlessly. Like lap times, you can't stop humans wanting to improve things The only downside to PCCB is cost. Everything else about them is better. If you can swallow the up-front cost, the ST solves this and in fact seems to work out cheaper over the same number of laps than steel. ST solved that last little issue too ... As for feel & aftersales, I'll just have to find out I guess.
Old 09-28-2021, 12:20 PM
  #32  
JRitt@essex
Basic Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor

 
JRitt@essex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Charlotte NC
Posts: 1,526
Received 651 Likes on 365 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Nordschleifers
Thanks Jeff. It's an endless debate it seems. I run a little Porsche enthusiasts club at the Ring. All are various flavours of 997 & 991 GT3, and me, the black sheep who insists on being comfortable for my drive on to eat good food in Italy after a track session

We all know each other's driving intimately now, and this year we started allowing each other to drive each others cars. No holds barred. Aside from everyone being annoyed with themselves for loving the way the Turbo drives waaaaaay more than they had convinced themselves they would, the thing that got the most discussion was just how EPIC PCCBs are compared to all their Endless/AP Racing etc etc steel upgrades. It's the way they never change in feel after any number of laps, for sure, but there are subtleties to really knowing the Ring.
For example, a full attack run down the hill from Kallenhard to Breidscheid will leave even the best steel brakes feeling a little exhausted as you brake into the bridge. With the PCCBs though, it feels almost as though you're just slowing for a junction on the way to the shops. It's like they just don't even notice you've just dropped well over 600ft in little over a mile, hauling yourself almost to a stop in Wehrseifen on the way down! I've done well over a thousand laps on steel brakes (AP amongst them and indeed probably still my favourites) but I still get excited by the 'new' experience of PCCB going down that hill. (amongst many other spots obvs).
That's really cool that you've found a family at the track. I've had a few of those situations over the past couple decades in motorsports. Early on when I was just getting my feet wet, I was autoXing competitively with a group of guys who had identical DC2 Honda Integra Type Rs. We used to race each other in autoX and time trials every week, frequently swapping cars to take the car out of the equation. Beating someone in their own car is always sure to put a certain look on their face! We would also work on each others' cars at the only guy with a garage's house, party together on the weekend, etc. I ultimately ended up hiring one of those gents, living with one of them, and am still friends with most of them. It was a great time in my life and my 'track' friends were a huge part of that. It sounds like you're in that type of situation, and I'm frankly a bit jealous. With all the above said, I think my main question is, "When can I come visit for some laps?" The Ring remains on my bucket to-do list!

I have no doubt your brakes are as good as steel can get. And feel incredible to use. And weigh less than other steels etc etc. And Way back in the days of me tracking an E39 M5 (don't ask!) the engineers at AP and I were on first name terms. You could not wish to deal with smarter, nicer and more helpful people. Seriously. But let me ask you this... when's the last time you saw anyone wearing wool clothing to the artic?

Tech moves on. Relentlessly. Like lap times, you can't stop humans wanting to improve things The only downside to PCCB is cost. Everything else about them is better. If you can swallow the up-front cost, the ST solves this and in fact seems to work out cheaper over the same number of laps than steel. ST solved that last little issue too ... As for feel & aftersales, I'll just have to find out I guess.
Thank you for the kind words. The AP team in England is a great bunch, and we have now enjoyed our relationship with them for decades. With regards to iron discs, someone else also recently posed the 'high-tech' argument. To me, the top priority is results. The result we've seen firsthand that our clients and racers who have moved away from PCCB haven't looked back, nor have any desire to look back. They much prefer everything about our system, from the ease of changing pads, to the massive cost reduction, to the feel. Iron discs may be 'old' technology, but they continually produce results. Our customers are setting personal best lap times, winning races and championships, and are thrilled with our iron disc kit performance. A quick peek at our blog shows this occurring every week on our systems: https://www.essexparts.com/news-blog
To my knowledge, none of these guys wanted to give their trophy back because winning with primitive iron discs made them feel too guilty. There's also plenty to be said for binning the iron discs once they've exhausted their usefulness, rather than removing your high-tech discs and waiting for them to be returned to you at some undisclosed point of time in the future. The service aspect can't be ignored, and missing events because your car is on the lift while your discs are off globetrotting is no fun.

Also, while it's fine to focus on the disc material, one can't ignore the other half of the brake technology puzzle: the calipers. They are every bit as crucial to the brake system as the disc material. The AP Racing Radi-CAL makes every other caliper design, including the OEM Porsche units, look like dinosaurs. We created the graphic below to illustrate this idea. They are a significant leap forward beyond prior brake technology, just like the multi-piston fixed caliper was over the sliding one piston caliper. The Radi-CAL has had an immense impact on motorsports, and upon introduction instantly forced all other brake manufacturers into the 'catch-up' game. In this link you can read/watch a video on the deign and impact of the Radi-CAL on racing, which includes some nice excerpts from Race Tech Magazine, etc.: https://www.essexparts.com/news-blog...-radical-story

The inherent stiffness of the Radi-CAL design, the lightness, the reduced running temps, etc. are all far beyond the scope of anything achievable by a conventional caliper design. This has been proven out in racing, where there has been a wholesale switch to the Radi-CAL caliper design (or some verison/copy of its asymmetrical form). You just don't see 'square block' conventional calipers on the podium in the top ranks of racing anymore, at least if the team wants to win.

Our piston design and material, the anti-knockback springs, the 6 lbs. vs. 11 lb. weight, the ease of pad swaps without removing the caliper, the long list of pad options, etc. are all factors in the overall performance and owner's enjoyment of the brake system. While discs are always viewed as a consumable (even ones that can be resurfaced/refurbished a few times), the calipers are the heart of the brake system that remain on the car as they consume a long string of pads and discs over time. Is it better to have something high-tech that you eventually throw away, or better to have something high-tech that you can sell in the future and recoup a large portion of your investment in it? Our systems hold their value tremendously well, and we see them passed on through multiple owners across many years, without degradation in performance, and in most cases they are essentially serviceable indefinitely (unless they are crashed or something truly extraordinary happens to them).

All are various flavours of 997 & 991 GT3, and me, the black sheep who insists on being comfortable for my drive on to eat good food in Italy after a track session
With our AP Racing Radi-CAL Brake Kit, it would only take you a few minutes to swap in a set of street pads after your track sessions before driving to Italy, which would further add to your comfort!




__________________
'09 Carrera 2S, '08 Boxster LE (orange), '91 Acura NSX, Tesla Model 3 Performance, Fiesta ST
Jeff Ritter
Mgr. High Performance Division, Essex Parts Services
Essex Designed AP Racing Radi-CAL Competition Brake Kits & 2-piece J Hook Discs
Ferodo Racing Brake Pads
Spiegler Stainless Steel Brake Lines
704-824-6030
jeff.ritter@essexparts.com
















Last edited by JRitt@essex; 09-28-2021 at 12:22 PM.



Quick Reply: Touring with Surface Transform (carbon ceramic) rotors



All times are GMT -3. The time now is 07:25 AM.