991.1 GT3RS vs 991.2 GT3RS - Is difference worth $50,000+?
#76
(a) Modelled and reality are two different things - theres a big ,in fact huge difference in spring rates - an increase of 55Nm on the front and 40Nm on the rear - plus there are helper springs on the front of the .2 RS
(b) The sway bars are softer on the .2 RS which stops the push over onto the edge of the tires under hard corning and gives better breakaway when it does occur - in fact the overall set up is much closer to a cup car
(c) Aero - you have forgotten about the Naca ducts which have multiple benefits and work with the under body airflow and rear diffuser, and brake cooling - plus the vents on the arches are bigger
(d) The engine is a different engine (very different) while the torque and HP gains are modest 10Nm and 20PS - features such as the improved oiling and reduced oil pressures are almost incalculable in terms of engine long term performance
(e) PDK-S tune and PTV-E linkage I'm sure someone could come up with a kluge fix for that
(f) Increased rear toe through RAS - more slip angle - again given you only have 4% to play with anything here is a big deal to in terms of corner stability, speed and grip. Again Im sure someone could come up with a kluge fix for that but to make it work seamlessly with the PTV-E and PDK-S is another matter.
On the same tires theres a 1 to 2 seconds minute difference - moreover the .2 is more stable when its doing that
If performance is your thing go for the .2 every time, its a better base to work from as well. If you don't care about reliable performance then none of this matters.
(b) The sway bars are softer on the .2 RS which stops the push over onto the edge of the tires under hard corning and gives better breakaway when it does occur - in fact the overall set up is much closer to a cup car
(c) Aero - you have forgotten about the Naca ducts which have multiple benefits and work with the under body airflow and rear diffuser, and brake cooling - plus the vents on the arches are bigger
(d) The engine is a different engine (very different) while the torque and HP gains are modest 10Nm and 20PS - features such as the improved oiling and reduced oil pressures are almost incalculable in terms of engine long term performance
(e) PDK-S tune and PTV-E linkage I'm sure someone could come up with a kluge fix for that
(f) Increased rear toe through RAS - more slip angle - again given you only have 4% to play with anything here is a big deal to in terms of corner stability, speed and grip. Again Im sure someone could come up with a kluge fix for that but to make it work seamlessly with the PTV-E and PDK-S is another matter.
On the same tires theres a 1 to 2 seconds minute difference - moreover the .2 is more stable when its doing that
If performance is your thing go for the .2 every time, its a better base to work from as well. If you don't care about reliable performance then none of this matters.
I think for those wanting to essentially get same lap times at most US tracks, saving $40-$50k is a very viable option as a purely cost/benefit decision. For those who don't want to muck with that stuff and want to keep everything pristine OEM (which has its appeal), then maybe the $50k is worth it.
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dmac (05-20-2020)
#77
Going back to the engine this is the list of differences I could come up with quickly excluding the most obvious hydraulics Vs shims
(1) 9000 RPM redline
(2) 470Nm and 520HP
(3) Stiffer crankshaft
(4) larger main bearing diameters
(5) centrally located oil feed
(6) new pistons and rings
(7) plasma coated cylinder liners
(8) wider and thicker con rod bearings
(9) dlc coated rocker arms
(10) new oil separator reducing foaming
(11) higher compression ratio ~13.3:1
Engine upgrades clearly designed to offer a high level of performance for longer - when you scratch any area of the .2 you see a lot of changes in fine detail.
If you start adding up all the changes there ends up being a lot.
(1) 9000 RPM redline
(2) 470Nm and 520HP
(3) Stiffer crankshaft
(4) larger main bearing diameters
(5) centrally located oil feed
(6) new pistons and rings
(7) plasma coated cylinder liners
(8) wider and thicker con rod bearings
(9) dlc coated rocker arms
(10) new oil separator reducing foaming
(11) higher compression ratio ~13.3:1
Engine upgrades clearly designed to offer a high level of performance for longer - when you scratch any area of the .2 you see a lot of changes in fine detail.
If you start adding up all the changes there ends up being a lot.
I was under the impression that the Solid lifters were a big factor yet you omitted it ????
The Crank is the same from what I can tell in .1 vs .2 has more oil holes drilled for lubrication.
The RPM difference is nonsense as the engine both don't produce power at those RPMs
What you should be asking is it a different engine block poking around it I cant see any difference between the 2.
Coatings worth it yes on my race engines I have these coatings and they are also on my transmissions gears they make a difference.
.2 Engine is certainly more refined but the suspension it the big difference between the .1 and .2.
Ian
#79
I was under the impression that the Solid lifters were a big factor yet you omitted it ????
The Crank is the same from what I can tell in .1 vs .2 has more oil holes drilled for lubrication.
The RPM difference is nonsense as the engine both don't produce power at those RPMs
What you should be asking is it a different engine block poking around it I cant see any difference between the 2.
Coatings worth it yes on my race engines I have these coatings and they are also on my transmissions gears they make a difference.
.2 Engine is certainly more refined but the suspension it the big difference between the .1 and .2.
Ian
The Crank is the same from what I can tell in .1 vs .2 has more oil holes drilled for lubrication.
The RPM difference is nonsense as the engine both don't produce power at those RPMs
What you should be asking is it a different engine block poking around it I cant see any difference between the 2.
Coatings worth it yes on my race engines I have these coatings and they are also on my transmissions gears they make a difference.
.2 Engine is certainly more refined but the suspension it the big difference between the .1 and .2.
Ian
RPM limit on .1 is really 8200 in 2-7 gears. 8800 is first only.
I can tell you that from a street driving perspective my .2 GT3RS shifts noticeably faster and crisper both in up and down shifts, turns in sharper and steering more responsive, suspension is firmer and revs quicker. Plus I like the new aesthetics of the NACA ducts.
Last edited by Waxer; 05-20-2020 at 06:30 PM.
#83
#84
Originally Posted by 3-Pedals
Nothing yet. But most likely .2 RS non WP.
Someone a few posts back said something about the .1 RS being limited to 8600 rpm in 2-7th gears. Is this really true?
Is it also the case for .2 RS?
Someone a few posts back said something about the .1 RS being limited to 8600 rpm in 2-7th gears. Is this really true?
Is it also the case for .2 RS?
.1 is 8800 on first shift then it is 8600 for the rest
PS what color you looking at getting?
#85
LG no WP if I can, If I cant I am also looking at a white one with WP. But I am not enjoying the process. Very hard to negotiate even a penny (literally).
#87
I was under the impression that the Solid lifters were a big factor yet you omitted it ????
The Crank is the same from what I can tell in .1 vs .2 has more oil holes drilled for lubrication.
The RPM difference is nonsense as the engine both don't produce power at those RPMs
What you should be asking is it a different engine block poking around it I cant see any difference between the 2.
Coatings worth it yes on my race engines I have these coatings and they are also on my transmissions gears they make a difference.
.2 Engine is certainly more refined but the suspension it the big difference between the .1 and .2.
Ian
The Crank is the same from what I can tell in .1 vs .2 has more oil holes drilled for lubrication.
The RPM difference is nonsense as the engine both don't produce power at those RPMs
What you should be asking is it a different engine block poking around it I cant see any difference between the 2.
Coatings worth it yes on my race engines I have these coatings and they are also on my transmissions gears they make a difference.
.2 Engine is certainly more refined but the suspension it the big difference between the .1 and .2.
Ian
I went on to point out the differences in the engine - that many are not aware of
1) 9000 RPM redline
(2) 470Nm and 520HP
(3) Stiffer crankshaft
(4) larger main bearing diameters
(5) centrally located oil feed
(6) new pistons and rings
(7) plasma coated cylinder liners
(8) wider and thicker con rod bearings
(9) dlc coated rocker arms
(10) new oil separator reducing foaming
(11) higher compression ratio ~13.3:1
LOL stronger/stiffer crank, larger main bearings and con rod bearings, new pistons and rings, different cylinder coatings, higher compression ratio, better oil separation - these are features that not only produce a better engine - but ensure it can performer at a higher level for longer. What part of that don't you understand? I think its pretty obvious to most - and thats just the engine.
Just about every key area has been improved on over the .1 engine. If you can't accept that its hard to know what to say other than the facts remain the facts.
#88
Don't fool yourself.. you are really splitting hairs as the performance isn't that far off. Also, if you don't believe the .1 vs .2 (stock for stock) videos on RL at Laguna Seca, can ask Manthey Racing, as I did to get a better picture of the impact of various improvements right from the horse's mouth. According to their testing, like for like tires, the .1 and the .2 are very close (10 secs apart on N-ring with adding bump stops on .1 to deal with Cup R tires and nothing else). Even the trick Ohlins TTX suspension (superior to .2 OEM) helps only by 5 seconds vs the .1 stock. Aero and engine power is the rest of the gap where you will see the benefits of aero on a very fast track. For the average turn/corner on most US tracks, the amount of downforce difference even with a mod like canards is just a few lbs and relatively inconsequential (get the same effect by adding 5 lbs of weight in your frunk). The .1 spring kits all have helper springs and Manthey runs even stiffer springs on their .1 with stock sways and they say no real impact to lap times, it just may offer a little more flexibility with driving style. DSC has proven that the existing valves in the .1 shocks aren't that different from .2, and damping resistance can easily be adjusted with software to effectuate the same outcome (contact them if u want more detail).
I think for those wanting to essentially get same lap times at most US tracks, saving $40-$50k is a very viable option as a purely cost/benefit decision. For those who don't want to muck with that stuff and want to keep everything pristine OEM (which has its appeal), then maybe the $50k is worth it.
I think for those wanting to essentially get same lap times at most US tracks, saving $40-$50k is a very viable option as a purely cost/benefit decision. For those who don't want to muck with that stuff and want to keep everything pristine OEM (which has its appeal), then maybe the $50k is worth it.
Your suggestions are the classic false economy that you see on every forum - e.g. you can build a WRX into a STI, M2 into M3, Carrera base into GTS, GT3 into GT3 RS, 570S into 720S. Far better to have the best base to work from and frankly the engine, PDK-S-PTV-E is just so much better. So much so its actually a no brainer. I to 2s per minute is real and its a big difference. In fact to mark it accurately the .1RS is about the equivalent of the .2GT3.
As I said previously none of this matters if you are just pottering around in them - except for one thing - Porsche chucked out the .1 GT3/RS engine design in favour of the .2 why? why did they go onto to build what is widely recognised as one of the most expensive production car engines ever? and then use that as the base engine for the RSR?
If you're building a racing platform all bets are off because the cars move a long way from stock - even then you would be far better off with the .2 purely on the basis of the engine alone due to its better oiling characteristics/pressure characteristics, larger main and con rod bearings - again this is a no brainer and goes back to buying the best platform you can afford to use as a base car.
Not really a lot more point re-covering old ground - I voted with my wallet and went for the .2.
Last edited by groundhog; 05-20-2020 at 11:27 PM.
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mashoutposse (09-17-2024)
#89
Why does lap times ever come up? Does ring times really matter to anyone? track days are not race days. so at some point you have traffic,lol random cars, at random speeds, with random drivers, all at their own pace (we hope) and a few trying to win a trophy, but there is no trophy. You could build a better car or pick based on better design or even what color you like the best, but to judge track day lap times or ring times cannot be a serious part of the decision making.
#90
I as the OP welcome the wealth information shared here. But I do want to mention one very key thing which is for “my use case”, this car will probably see 0 to close to 0 track time. Does that mean I dont want a hardcore on the rails car as my weekend toy car? Absolutely not. I want mechanical grip and precision. That being said, I dont know if I could feel the differences between these two cars besides:
- The lower redline
- Steering feel
- Snappier PDK
Now those I care and I want the better car. All other suspension changes, I also probably care (as a car geek who likes an uncomfortable harsh ride) but I probably wont ever use them to their potential.
- The lower redline
- Steering feel
- Snappier PDK
Now those I care and I want the better car. All other suspension changes, I also probably care (as a car geek who likes an uncomfortable harsh ride) but I probably wont ever use them to their potential.