GT3 Near Crash! (at 35MPH)
03-04-2020, 01:52 PM
#46
Rennlist Member
Sounds to me like you were also experiencing cold Cup tires more than RWS (which is relatively subtle). If you'd ever like to meet me at the local track (since you live in town), I'd be happy to join you (I'm there quite often as are a bunch of Rennlisters). Open days every weekend (alternating Sat or Sun to separate cars from motorcyles) - inexpensive (about $100), safe and fun:
https://www.highplainsraceway.com/calendar/
https://www.highplainsraceway.com/calendar/
03-04-2020, 03:15 PM
#47
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
03-04-2020, 10:48 PM
#48
On RL we're pretty plain with how we see things.
What you described is likely a driver error.
I wouldn't bother talking about cold tires or car setup at 40mph. None of that is relevant.
One would need the objectivity of a replay to know exactly what happened, but I'm guessing you had throttle-induced O/S. Either a jab or a lift.
For me I'd take the same car and go back to the same spot when there's less traffic and seek to understand my inputs leading to the issue.
If you're not comfortable with that, I'd drive circles in an empty lot until you feel the front starting to push. Explore the throttle at that limit. Induce power oversteer and liftoff oversteer. Get comfortable with your new car... you'll appreciate it's a very different instrument vs. the M2 (which I enjoyed too on track, just very different)
What you described is likely a driver error.
I wouldn't bother talking about cold tires or car setup at 40mph. None of that is relevant.
One would need the objectivity of a replay to know exactly what happened, but I'm guessing you had throttle-induced O/S. Either a jab or a lift.
For me I'd take the same car and go back to the same spot when there's less traffic and seek to understand my inputs leading to the issue.
If you're not comfortable with that, I'd drive circles in an empty lot until you feel the front starting to push. Explore the throttle at that limit. Induce power oversteer and liftoff oversteer. Get comfortable with your new car... you'll appreciate it's a very different instrument vs. the M2 (which I enjoyed too on track, just very different)
THIS!
I went from a BMW 1M to a 911 to a GT3. The driving experience and risks are logarithmically higher as you go up the scale. The GT3 rewards precision. If you get it right, it is incredible. If you don't, it is much less forgiving than the BMW M platforms or even the regular 911s.
Cold tires + throttle oversteer + overcorrection is a recipe for disaster. As others have pointed out, go out with your local PCA chapter to a skidpad / autocross and learn the car. Enjoy!
03-05-2020, 02:31 AM
#49
My car has the factory Dunlop’s. I was rushing a u-turn and got on the gas too aggressively with the steering wheel still cranked. the rear stepped out a little. It would have been more fun had there not been a car so close in front my me that I was trying to pass.
my first thought was I’m surprised traction control didn’t prevent me from throttle over steering.
my second thought was this car is awesome, throttle induced oversteer on demand without having to disable stability control.
my first thought was I’m surprised traction control didn’t prevent me from throttle over steering.
my second thought was this car is awesome, throttle induced oversteer on demand without having to disable stability control.
03-05-2020, 03:50 AM
#50
Correct me if I’m wrong: all this discussion of warming up your tires on the street (especially in 40 degree temps) - I thought this was impossible. Unless you’re putting a constant high speed turning and braking load on tires (such as track driving) they don’t “warm up” to any significant degree aside from contact with pavement on a hot summer day unless you have some really badass roads where you live and you drive incredibly “at the limit” on public roads.
Am I wrong here? Also high performance summers don’t belong in 40 degree weather.
Am I wrong here? Also high performance summers don’t belong in 40 degree weather.
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CRex (03-05-2020)
03-05-2020, 06:49 AM
#51
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Correct me if I’m wrong: all this discussion of warming up your tires on the street (especially in 40 degree temps) - I thought this was impossible. Unless you’re putting a constant high speed turning and braking load on tires (such as track driving) they don’t “warm up” to any significant degree aside from contact with pavement on a hot summer day unless you have some really badass roads where you live and you drive incredibly “at the limit” on public roads.
03-05-2020, 09:31 AM
#52
Rennlist Member
At DE Sunday second turn, first lap out GT3 driver looped it in front of me. 45 degrees outside 9:00am
Cold tires and a lack of talent
Seat time and understanding your car and how it response to inputs is critical
Good thing he was learning on the track - A little surprised to see in RED run group but still a good lesson for drivers
Cold tires and a lack of talent
Seat time and understanding your car and how it response to inputs is critical
Good thing he was learning on the track - A little surprised to see in RED run group but still a good lesson for drivers
^^^You need some time on the track
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AlexCeres (03-05-2020)
03-05-2020, 12:35 PM
#53
Nordschleife Master
Correct me if I’m wrong: all this discussion of warming up your tires on the street (especially in 40 degree temps) - I thought this was impossible. Unless you’re putting a constant high speed turning and braking load on tires (such as track driving) they don’t “warm up” to any significant degree aside from contact with pavement on a hot summer day unless you have some really badass roads where you live and you drive incredibly “at the limit” on public roads.
Am I wrong here? Also high performance summers don’t belong in 40 degree weather.
Am I wrong here? Also high performance summers don’t belong in 40 degree weather.
03-05-2020, 12:42 PM
#54
Rennlist Member
That is my point
Spinning off track first lap out in most clubs earns you an automatic black flag and loss of the session
As a POC, SCCA National and PCA DE Instructor licensed driver I/we dont see this often and extremely rare in RED group
Sure it happens to the best of us but please never ever on first lap out
Spinning off track first lap out in most clubs earns you an automatic black flag and loss of the session
As a POC, SCCA National and PCA DE Instructor licensed driver I/we dont see this often and extremely rare in RED group
Sure it happens to the best of us but please never ever on first lap out
03-05-2020, 04:26 PM
#55
I ride a liter bike at track days and I can attest that sticky tires and balled up rubber on the chicken strips only happen at the track. If I check the tires even after a very spirited freeway ride they aren’t warm unless the pavement is already hot. I’m still skeptical of warming up tires on the street unless you have a consistent series of major turns.
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CRex (03-05-2020)
03-05-2020, 04:59 PM
#56
Again, thanks for the advice, seems I'm not the only one who this has caught out, which kind of begs the question should Porsche be speccing such a track focused tyre on road car with track capabilities, what others are saying is you may have to warm the tyres up for 20 mins in order for the tyres to function correctly, which isn't (generally) how most modern cars work. For the track use that's fine because it is a more extreme environment that requires more extreme tyres/engine/suspension etc. As a road car with normal tyres on you would then have a choice to spec the tyres up for track use, this seems the wrong way round or counter intuitive, what I'm basically saying is, Porsche should be specced the car for any situation road use (wet dry) if you want to track it you will have to change a few things to compliment this.
I have now ordered some "pilot sport 4 s" tyres which will be more standard road ready and will keep the cup 2 tyres if I track the car. One thing I noticed from the replies is the reason why it happened is driver fault. Was it my fault or the tyres, ( if it hadn't have happened I may at a later date had another situation that was far more disastrous, and I'm now aware of the tyre situation and can respect the car a little more). It's quite a brutal trial by fire!
One thing to note, before I bought the Porsche I went to try the Mclaren 540 GT, the salesmen said I will drive for 5 minutes and then you can take over, this was a really cold morning and without the car been warmed up took me round a roundabout within the first 30 seconds at about 60MPH - 70MPH the car never moved an inch, I was really impressed!
Someone made a good point about going back have a look at the corner/roundabout which I will do soon. I would love to come to the U.S and check out the tracks there, unfortunately I'm U.K based
(I will update this on Rennlist) I'm there (California) next year so who knows, the family will love standing in the heat while I wiz round the track for 8 Hours Ha! Ha! Cheers
I have now ordered some "pilot sport 4 s" tyres which will be more standard road ready and will keep the cup 2 tyres if I track the car. One thing I noticed from the replies is the reason why it happened is driver fault. Was it my fault or the tyres, ( if it hadn't have happened I may at a later date had another situation that was far more disastrous, and I'm now aware of the tyre situation and can respect the car a little more). It's quite a brutal trial by fire!
One thing to note, before I bought the Porsche I went to try the Mclaren 540 GT, the salesmen said I will drive for 5 minutes and then you can take over, this was a really cold morning and without the car been warmed up took me round a roundabout within the first 30 seconds at about 60MPH - 70MPH the car never moved an inch, I was really impressed!
Someone made a good point about going back have a look at the corner/roundabout which I will do soon. I would love to come to the U.S and check out the tracks there, unfortunately I'm U.K based
(I will update this on Rennlist) I'm there (California) next year so who knows, the family will love standing in the heat while I wiz round the track for 8 Hours Ha! Ha! Cheers
03-05-2020, 08:41 PM
#57
Thanks everyone for replying, it is looking like temp in the tyres which has played the significant role, I had only done about 4-5 miles before this happened, it was also a chilly day . As I mentioned it was the speed that (literally) threw me 30-35 MPH, but like a lot of you that have had experience with these tyres are aware of their cold shortcomings.
I will look into the PS4S tyres, thanks! Fsts2k- Traction was switched on. I agree with people that have suggested pushing the car in large space/car park/parking lot, just to get a feel for both the tyres and the weight of the car. I will look into checking out the alignment and sway bar, thanks for the kind words. Like I said it's my first Porsche so I've got to learn and adapt.
I will look into the PS4S tyres, thanks! Fsts2k- Traction was switched on. I agree with people that have suggested pushing the car in large space/car park/parking lot, just to get a feel for both the tyres and the weight of the car. I will look into checking out the alignment and sway bar, thanks for the kind words. Like I said it's my first Porsche so I've got to learn and adapt.
03-05-2020, 09:32 PM
#58
At DE Sunday second turn, first lap out GT3 driver looped it in front of me. 45 degrees outside 9:00am
Cold tires and a lack of talent
Seat time and understanding your car and how it response to inputs is critical
Good thing he was learning on the track - A little surprised to see in RED run group but still a good lesson for drivers
Cold tires and a lack of talent
Seat time and understanding your car and how it response to inputs is critical
Good thing he was learning on the track - A little surprised to see in RED run group but still a good lesson for drivers
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AlexCeres (03-06-2020)
03-06-2020, 12:52 PM
#59
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Yep! It seems some people are forgetting that the PS4's are classified as Summer tires (rather than some sort of all-season). PS4's are not the answer in cold temps (they work better than Cups in wet weather, but still pretty limited with cold). I think this is why Porsche only officially designates the Cup/Race Maxx tires and the true Winter tires (which unfortunately require their own smaller wheels) for the GT3.
03-06-2020, 02:52 PM
#60
Three Wheelin'
My guess its a combination of things. Cold tires, tire air pressure, how you lay down the throttle. Its not how fast the speed when the car spun around, but how you gun the throttle. Even if you just reach 20 miles per hour, but from a standstill if you lay down the throttle abruptly, a high power car with the nannies off will behave quite dramatically. Unless you are Juan Montoya or Chris Harris who can demonstratively pull the bull by the horn and dance around every turn on the track and on the other hand you have the drivers like Jackie Stewart and Ayrton Senna who handle their car with god-like smoothness, its better to use your throttle progressively and smoothly.