How much higher will the horsepower wars go?
06-02-2019, 05:15 AM
#16
Three Wheelin'
With it being relatively easy stack electric motors, will be least surprised if we saw 1000+ hp family sedans in a decade.
06-02-2019, 05:56 AM
#17
Race Director
One practical consideration.. drive a current "hypercar".. like 918 for example, it's very very fast on straight sections of track.. like 25-30mph faster on back straight at road atlanta than a gt3RS. BUT when you take a corner, you are at approximately the same speed as a gt3RS. So you end up with a strong yo-yo effect compared to traffic, and while the rush of speed is undeniable, it feels like you're spending considerable time slowing vs carrying any momentum. This is an AWD, as close to 1000hp as it gets last generation car.. which is pretty heavy at 3400lb. So, Despite massive tires, it still can't defy laughs of physics and so you have these huge speed differentials all over the track. This is what teaching 1000hp is like.. unless they want to grow contact patch size and put monster "pikes peak" type of downforce on each car. OR.. somehow figure out how to take 1000lb out of each one???
This is why I believe we've reached some sort of practical, not to mention enjoyment limit with these levels of power. Focus will hopefully be in dramatic weight reduction and less power.. but, maybe that's just my wishful thinking.
This is why I believe we've reached some sort of practical, not to mention enjoyment limit with these levels of power. Focus will hopefully be in dramatic weight reduction and less power.. but, maybe that's just my wishful thinking.
06-02-2019, 09:28 AM
#18
One practical consideration.. drive a current "hypercar".. like 918 for example, it's very very fast on straight sections of track.. like 25-30mph faster on back straight at road atlanta than a gt3RS. BUT when you take a corner, you are at approximately the same speed as a gt3RS. So you end up with a strong yo-yo effect compared to traffic, and while the rush of speed is undeniable, it feels like you're spending considerable time slowing vs carrying any momentum. This is an AWD, as close to 1000hp as it gets last generation car.. which is pretty heavy at 3400lb. So, Despite massive tires, it still can't defy laughs of physics and so you have these huge speed differentials all over the track. This is what teaching 1000hp is like.. unless they want to grow contact patch size and put monster "pikes peak" type of downforce on each car. OR.. somehow figure out how to take 1000lb out of each one???
This is why I believe we've reached some sort of practical, not to mention enjoyment limit with these levels of power. Focus will hopefully be in dramatic weight reduction and less power.. but, maybe that's just my wishful thinking.
This is why I believe we've reached some sort of practical, not to mention enjoyment limit with these levels of power. Focus will hopefully be in dramatic weight reduction and less power.. but, maybe that's just my wishful thinking.
06-02-2019, 02:51 PM
#19
One can over-simplify and say that some customers want to have horsepower. They will use it (often sparingly, as a party trick), but knowing it’s there is what’s important. Given the low miles and rare track appearances I see on so many Ferraris I’d put most (not all) of their drivers in this group.
There is another group that really wants to use horsepower. I would put a large subset of Porsche drivers in this group, and this is no accident- Porsche makes some of the most usable power around. Not only are their cars built to be used, with brakes and cooling up to the task, but they deploy power far more efficiently than nearly any other make. New Carreras will keep up with giants around a track despite their power deficit in large part because the driver can get on power earlier and stay in it later. In other words they let you experience the joy of using power more.
On some level we all want more power- I know I nearly always do. However when I get it I’m often disappointed. The 918 left me cold because I simply couldn’t use the power and performance where I was driving, and if we’re honest there are few places in the world one can. Meanwhile some of my greatest drives have been in relatively slow cars- 356s, Boxster Spyders, old 912s, etc- where I was in rhythm for minutes at a time. I find that nearly impossible in a car that’s “too fast”, and I think Porsche knows this.
I believe Porsche is not playing the power game intentionally largely because it’s focusing on experience. Scary fast has its place, and with >1000 hp electrics soon to be everywhere there will be plenty of that, but usable power is at the end of the day more rewarding for most drivers. It’s not as good for bragging rights, but if we’re honest (unless we’re talking lap-times) that’s never been Porsche’s game.
If you searched you’d find an old thread I started shortly after Rennlist began where I put forward an argument that Porsche needed to step up it game. The ZR-1, etc were already winning the power war and I felt Porsche should respond. In the intervening nearly 20 years I’ve come full circle. After experiencing from the drivers seat what that would mean I think Porsche is largely doing it right, they simply got there a few decades before I did. Surprise- they know what they’re doing.
06-02-2019, 02:56 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
Remember when the 1985 Mustang GT went over 200 hp from 4.9 liters for $9,885, and 200 hp was suddenly the new 100 hp? And when jaws dropped at the production 1996 993 Turbo with 400 hp, and then when the 2004 GT3 got within 20 hp on the same 3.6 liters without the turbos?
With that said, count me among those who would rather see weight go down than power go up. Too bad it isn't as easy…
With that said, count me among those who would rather see weight go down than power go up. Too bad it isn't as easy…
I support this plan, its hard when lesser manufacturers (chevy/mclaren) produce cars with more HP and we try to overcome this with better quality/styling/refinement/handling
06-02-2019, 03:17 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
The weight reduction discussion is an interesting one.
How many of those who argue for it do AC and radio delete on their cars? My guess is not many. They will argue that the manufacturer could do a lot more to reduce weight than they can. But they still would want all the structural safety, they would still want a powerful engine that has to clear emissions, they still want all the isolation so their car isn't unbearably loud all the time, they still want power windows, etc, etc. There are light high performance cars out there available with great power to weight ratio, devoid of all the niceties, and how big is that market segment? So given what most people actually want, the only solution for a manufacturer like Porsche is to make heavy performance cars mitigated by high horsepower, and to make them 'feel' lighter through handling technology.
I've recently been going through this process myself making all the decisions for my 73 RSR backdate. Do I want power windows cause that adds about 90lbs. Do I want engine extracted heating, cause that costs HP. Literally every decision is a compromise of functionality/power/weight. I'll be at around 2300lbs and 370ish rwhp, but not much in the way or luxuries, and even less in the way of safety (no abs, no nannies of any kind, no power steering, no airbags, etc). That's why a Singer is pushing 3000lbs despite the fact that it's half carbon fibre. And keep in mind I have the luxury of making these decisions and compromises, OEMs can't because all that stuff has to be in the car these days for it to be legal.
Anyway, I'm sure the average weight of high performance cars will keep going up and so will their HP ... hopefully at some point we will also get traction/grip wars.
How many of those who argue for it do AC and radio delete on their cars? My guess is not many. They will argue that the manufacturer could do a lot more to reduce weight than they can. But they still would want all the structural safety, they would still want a powerful engine that has to clear emissions, they still want all the isolation so their car isn't unbearably loud all the time, they still want power windows, etc, etc. There are light high performance cars out there available with great power to weight ratio, devoid of all the niceties, and how big is that market segment? So given what most people actually want, the only solution for a manufacturer like Porsche is to make heavy performance cars mitigated by high horsepower, and to make them 'feel' lighter through handling technology.
I've recently been going through this process myself making all the decisions for my 73 RSR backdate. Do I want power windows cause that adds about 90lbs. Do I want engine extracted heating, cause that costs HP. Literally every decision is a compromise of functionality/power/weight. I'll be at around 2300lbs and 370ish rwhp, but not much in the way or luxuries, and even less in the way of safety (no abs, no nannies of any kind, no power steering, no airbags, etc). That's why a Singer is pushing 3000lbs despite the fact that it's half carbon fibre. And keep in mind I have the luxury of making these decisions and compromises, OEMs can't because all that stuff has to be in the car these days for it to be legal.
Anyway, I'm sure the average weight of high performance cars will keep going up and so will their HP ... hopefully at some point we will also get traction/grip wars.
06-02-2019, 03:39 PM
#22
The weight reduction discussion is an interesting one.
How many of those who argue for it do AC and radio delete on their cars? My guess is not many. They will argue that the manufacturer could do a lot more to reduce weight than they can. But they still would want all the structural safety, they would still want a powerful engine that has to clear emissions, they still want all the isolation so their car isn't unbearably loud all the time, they still want power windows, etc, etc. There are light high performance cars out there available with great power to weight ratio, devoid of all the niceties, and how big is that market segment? So given what most people actually want, the only solution for a manufacturer like Porsche is to make heavy performance cars mitigated by high horsepower, and to make them 'feel' lighter through handling technology.
I've recently been going through this process myself making all the decisions for my 73 RSR backdate. Do I want power windows cause that adds about 90lbs. Do I want engine extracted heating, cause that costs HP. Literally every decision is a compromise of functionality/power/weight. I'll be at around 2300lbs and 370ish rwhp, but not much in the way or luxuries, and even less in the way of safety (no abs, no nannies of any kind, no power steering, no airbags, etc). That's why a Singer is pushing 3000lbs despite the fact that it's half carbon fibre. And keep in mind I have the luxury of making these decisions and compromises, OEMs can't because all that stuff has to be in the car these days for it to be legal.
Anyway, I'm sure the average weight of high performance cars will keep going up and so will their HP ... hopefully at some point we will also get traction/grip wars.
How many of those who argue for it do AC and radio delete on their cars? My guess is not many. They will argue that the manufacturer could do a lot more to reduce weight than they can. But they still would want all the structural safety, they would still want a powerful engine that has to clear emissions, they still want all the isolation so their car isn't unbearably loud all the time, they still want power windows, etc, etc. There are light high performance cars out there available with great power to weight ratio, devoid of all the niceties, and how big is that market segment? So given what most people actually want, the only solution for a manufacturer like Porsche is to make heavy performance cars mitigated by high horsepower, and to make them 'feel' lighter through handling technology.
I've recently been going through this process myself making all the decisions for my 73 RSR backdate. Do I want power windows cause that adds about 90lbs. Do I want engine extracted heating, cause that costs HP. Literally every decision is a compromise of functionality/power/weight. I'll be at around 2300lbs and 370ish rwhp, but not much in the way or luxuries, and even less in the way of safety (no abs, no nannies of any kind, no power steering, no airbags, etc). That's why a Singer is pushing 3000lbs despite the fact that it's half carbon fibre. And keep in mind I have the luxury of making these decisions and compromises, OEMs can't because all that stuff has to be in the car these days for it to be legal.
Anyway, I'm sure the average weight of high performance cars will keep going up and so will their HP ... hopefully at some point we will also get traction/grip wars.
06-02-2019, 03:40 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
One practical consideration.. drive a current "hypercar".. like 918 for example, it's very very fast on straight sections of track.. like 25-30mph faster on back straight at road atlanta than a gt3RS. BUT when you take a corner, you are at approximately the same speed as a gt3RS. So you end up with a strong yo-yo effect compared to traffic, and while the rush of speed is undeniable, it feels like you're spending considerable time slowing vs carrying any momentum. This is an AWD, as close to 1000hp as it gets last generation car.. which is pretty heavy at 3400lb. So, Despite massive tires, it still can't defy laughs of physics and so you have these huge speed differentials all over the track. This is what teaching 1000hp is like.. unless they want to grow contact patch size and put monster "pikes peak" type of downforce on each car. OR.. somehow figure out how to take 1000lb out of each one???
This is why I believe we've reached some sort of practical, not to mention enjoyment limit with these levels of power. Focus will hopefully be in dramatic weight reduction and less power.. but, maybe that's just my wishful thinking.
This is why I believe we've reached some sort of practical, not to mention enjoyment limit with these levels of power. Focus will hopefully be in dramatic weight reduction and less power.. but, maybe that's just my wishful thinking.
If you look at many of the makes chasing power you’ll notice that most (not all) are not known for serious driver enjoyment. One could even argue that some have a reputation for overheating and/ or falling apart if used to their full potential.
One can over-simplify and say that some customers want to have horsepower. They will use it (often sparingly, as a party trick), but knowing it’s there is what’s important. Given the low miles and rare track appearances I see on so many Ferraris I’d put most (not all) of their drivers in this group.
There is another group that really wants to use horsepower. I would put a large subset of Porsche drivers in this group, and this is no accident- Porsche makes some of the most usable power around. Not only are their cars built to be used, with brakes and cooling up to the task, but they deploy power far more efficiently than nearly any other make. New Carreras will keep up with giants around a track despite their power deficit in large part because the driver can get on power earlier and stay in it later. In other words they let you experience the joy of using power more.
On some level we all want more power- I know I nearly always do. However when I get it I’m often disappointed. The 918 left me cold because I simply couldn’t use the power and performance where I was driving, and if we’re honest there are few places in the world one can. Meanwhile some of my greatest drives have been in relatively slow cars- 356s, Boxster Spyders, old 912s, etc- where I was in rhythm for minutes at a time. I find that nearly impossible in a car that’s “too fast”, and I think Porsche knows this.
I believe Porsche is not playing the power game intentionally largely because it’s focusing on experience. Scary fast has its place, and with >1000 hp electrics soon to be everywhere there will be plenty of that, but usable power is at the end of the day more rewarding for most drivers. It’s not as good for bragging rights, but if we’re honest (unless we’re talking lap-times) that’s never been Porsche’s game.
If you searched you’d find an old thread I started shortly after Rennlist began where I put forward an argument that Porsche needed to step up it game. The ZR-1, etc were already winning the power war and I felt Porsche should respond. In the intervening nearly 20 years I’ve come full circle. After experiencing from the drivers seat what that would mean I think Porsche is largely doing it right, they simply got there a few decades before I did. Surprise- they know what they’re doing.
One can over-simplify and say that some customers want to have horsepower. They will use it (often sparingly, as a party trick), but knowing it’s there is what’s important. Given the low miles and rare track appearances I see on so many Ferraris I’d put most (not all) of their drivers in this group.
There is another group that really wants to use horsepower. I would put a large subset of Porsche drivers in this group, and this is no accident- Porsche makes some of the most usable power around. Not only are their cars built to be used, with brakes and cooling up to the task, but they deploy power far more efficiently than nearly any other make. New Carreras will keep up with giants around a track despite their power deficit in large part because the driver can get on power earlier and stay in it later. In other words they let you experience the joy of using power more.
On some level we all want more power- I know I nearly always do. However when I get it I’m often disappointed. The 918 left me cold because I simply couldn’t use the power and performance where I was driving, and if we’re honest there are few places in the world one can. Meanwhile some of my greatest drives have been in relatively slow cars- 356s, Boxster Spyders, old 912s, etc- where I was in rhythm for minutes at a time. I find that nearly impossible in a car that’s “too fast”, and I think Porsche knows this.
I believe Porsche is not playing the power game intentionally largely because it’s focusing on experience. Scary fast has its place, and with >1000 hp electrics soon to be everywhere there will be plenty of that, but usable power is at the end of the day more rewarding for most drivers. It’s not as good for bragging rights, but if we’re honest (unless we’re talking lap-times) that’s never been Porsche’s game.
If you searched you’d find an old thread I started shortly after Rennlist began where I put forward an argument that Porsche needed to step up it game. The ZR-1, etc were already winning the power war and I felt Porsche should respond. In the intervening nearly 20 years I’ve come full circle. After experiencing from the drivers seat what that would mean I think Porsche is largely doing it right, they simply got there a few decades before I did. Surprise- they know what they’re doing.
06-02-2019, 03:55 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
All will be revealed in due course. 
But from the outside spec wise it will look identical to this one but in Leaf Green.
Modern supercars are amazing machines, and unreasonable power is a notable elixir, heck my 19 M5 Comp is basically a four door 991 TTS ... but because of all the tech 150mph feels like 75, and I'm trying to get back to when 75mph felt like 150. (btw that's also why the chassis is from a 79 and not 964, as the former results in maximum 'rawness')
But from the outside spec wise it will look identical to this one but in Leaf Green.
Modern supercars are amazing machines, and unreasonable power is a notable elixir, heck my 19 M5 Comp is basically a four door 991 TTS ... but because of all the tech 150mph feels like 75, and I'm trying to get back to when 75mph felt like 150.
(btw that's also why the chassis is from a 79 and not 964, as the former results in maximum 'rawness')
06-02-2019, 04:08 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
It's interesting to watch this conversation unfold while applying another metric: torque to weight.
Get away from Porsche's Turbo/GT2/918/Hybrid/Cayenne Turbo/Panamera Turbo/etc, and what Porsche has managed to deliver is sports cars with headlining horsepower numbers that can actually deploy all their torque—and nowhere is this more true than with the GT3-based cars because torque hasn't risen in quite the same way the hp has.
I find myself aligning closely with Calexio and PeteVB after my time in the 918—but I loved the GT2 RS @ Road America. Even so, I'd probably go GT3/Touring 6MT or even Carrera/T 7MT unless I was going to be doing a lot of track work. But I'd happily go for even less power. I woke up this morning thinking about a recent drive in a 911 with 300~hp, and what a nice power point that is so long as the noises are good and the weight are in check. To me, the sweet spot for street cars is 180-400 hp @ the right weight with the right noises and reflexes...
Get away from Porsche's Turbo/GT2/918/Hybrid/Cayenne Turbo/Panamera Turbo/etc, and what Porsche has managed to deliver is sports cars with headlining horsepower numbers that can actually deploy all their torque—and nowhere is this more true than with the GT3-based cars because torque hasn't risen in quite the same way the hp has.
I find myself aligning closely with Calexio and PeteVB after my time in the 918—but I loved the GT2 RS @ Road America. Even so, I'd probably go GT3/Touring 6MT or even Carrera/T 7MT unless I was going to be doing a lot of track work. But I'd happily go for even less power. I woke up this morning thinking about a recent drive in a 911 with 300~hp, and what a nice power point that is so long as the noises are good and the weight are in check. To me, the sweet spot for street cars is 180-400 hp @ the right weight with the right noises and reflexes...
06-02-2019, 04:15 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
The weight reduction discussion is an interesting one.
How many of those who argue for it do AC and radio delete on their cars? My guess is not many. They will argue that the manufacturer could do a lot more to reduce weight than they can. But they still would want all the structural safety, they would still want a powerful engine that has to clear emissions, they still want all the isolation so their car isn't unbearably loud all the time, they still want power windows, etc, etc. There are light high performance cars out there available with great power to weight ratio, devoid of all the niceties, and how big is that market segment? So given what most people actually want, the only solution for a manufacturer like Porsche is to make heavy performance cars mitigated by high horsepower, and to make them 'feel' lighter through handling technology.
I've recently been going through this process myself making all the decisions for my 73 RSR backdate. Do I want power windows cause that adds about 90lbs. Do I want engine extracted heating, cause that costs HP. Literally every decision is a compromise of functionality/power/weight. I'll be at around 2300lbs and 370ish rwhp, but not much in the way or luxuries, and even less in the way of safety (no abs, no nannies of any kind, no power steering, no airbags, etc). That's why a Singer is pushing 3000lbs despite the fact that it's half carbon fibre. And keep in mind I have the luxury of making these decisions and compromises, OEMs can't because all that stuff has to be in the car these days for it to be legal.
Anyway, I'm sure the average weight of high performance cars will keep going up and so will their HP ... hopefully at some point we will also get traction/grip wars.
How many of those who argue for it do AC and radio delete on their cars? My guess is not many. They will argue that the manufacturer could do a lot more to reduce weight than they can. But they still would want all the structural safety, they would still want a powerful engine that has to clear emissions, they still want all the isolation so their car isn't unbearably loud all the time, they still want power windows, etc, etc. There are light high performance cars out there available with great power to weight ratio, devoid of all the niceties, and how big is that market segment? So given what most people actually want, the only solution for a manufacturer like Porsche is to make heavy performance cars mitigated by high horsepower, and to make them 'feel' lighter through handling technology.
I've recently been going through this process myself making all the decisions for my 73 RSR backdate. Do I want power windows cause that adds about 90lbs. Do I want engine extracted heating, cause that costs HP. Literally every decision is a compromise of functionality/power/weight. I'll be at around 2300lbs and 370ish rwhp, but not much in the way or luxuries, and even less in the way of safety (no abs, no nannies of any kind, no power steering, no airbags, etc). That's why a Singer is pushing 3000lbs despite the fact that it's half carbon fibre. And keep in mind I have the luxury of making these decisions and compromises, OEMs can't because all that stuff has to be in the car these days for it to be legal.
Anyway, I'm sure the average weight of high performance cars will keep going up and so will their HP ... hopefully at some point we will also get traction/grip wars.
There's a hole in the market, as not everyone who is building an old car wants an old car. In fact, I suspect few of them do—they're only doing it because there is no other way. The challenge to carmakers in filling this hole in the market isn't technology—it's making the right body make sense financially.
06-02-2019, 07:43 PM
#28
There's a hole in the market, as not everyone who is building an old car wants an old car. In fact, I suspect few of them do—they're only doing it because there is no other way. The challenge to carmakers in filling this hole in the market isn't technology—it's making the right body make sense financially.
And while I agree in theory I still struggle to see the exact shape of that market hole. It clearly isn’t shaped like a lotus, but why not?
Soulsea, check the link in my sig if you haven’t seen it. Similar (in some ways) to what you’re describing...
Last edited by Petevb; 06-02-2019 at 08:08 PM.
06-02-2019, 07:56 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
Here's a little preview ...
I think the takeaway here is that sometimes we all have to fill our own holes.
06-02-2019, 08:28 PM
#30