How much higher will the horsepower wars go?
06-02-2019, 08:47 PM
#31
One practical consideration.. drive a current "hypercar".. like 918 for example, it's very very fast on straight sections of track.. like 25-30mph faster on back straight at road atlanta than a gt3RS. BUT when you take a corner, you are at approximately the same speed as a gt3RS. So you end up with a strong yo-yo effect compared to traffic, and while the rush of speed is undeniable, it feels like you're spending considerable time slowing vs carrying any momentum. This is an AWD, as close to 1000hp as it gets last generation car.. which is pretty heavy at 3400lb. So, Despite massive tires, it still can't defy laughs of physics and so you have these huge speed differentials all over the track. This is what teaching 1000hp is like.. unless they want to grow contact patch size and put monster "pikes peak" type of downforce on each car. OR.. somehow figure out how to take 1000lb out of each one???
This is why I believe we've reached some sort of practical, not to mention enjoyment limit with these levels of power. Focus will hopefully be in dramatic weight reduction and less power.. but, maybe that's just my wishful thinking.
This is why I believe we've reached some sort of practical, not to mention enjoyment limit with these levels of power. Focus will hopefully be in dramatic weight reduction and less power.. but, maybe that's just my wishful thinking.
Once again, your vast experience sums it up very well
06-02-2019, 10:43 PM
#32
SJW, a Carin' kinda guy
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Interesting about what to leave behind.
“Simplify and add lightness.”
Unlike stout, I found the Elise to be a wonderful commuter. It got great gas mileage, parts were cheap, maintenance was cheap, tires and brakes were cheap, it was easy enough to work on, you could get groceries in the trunk and passenger seat, it was reliable enough (ok so it blew an engine, but the oil cooler was later recalled, and they all needed radiators ....) and it is structurally sound enough to survive a roll over. My only complaints were that there were no nannies to turn off (see my last like), it had to be on full boil (6200rpm plus) to get any power, and 6th gear was way too steep ok the highway. The first one got fixed post US importation, the second was fixed with the Exige S supercharger (loved that car except you could not see out the back, the Elise supercharged you could), and the last complaint can be fixed with a celica 6th gear swap. Oh ya, 2000lbs.
The entire interior and seats weighed maybe 80lbs. The only quirk was seat rock, but that could be cured with a fixed RHD passenger seat mount for the driver. I was fine with the blaupunct radio and 4 speaker, the alpine in the Exige S was even better. Heater was an aspirational rather than descriptive term. Ya, the AC was terrible, but it was fine too. The top (hard or soft) dripped a little water in heavy rain, but there was nothing to ruin inside anyway (I did lose a nice tie one time).
To me, that’s the bogey. 2000lbs and for hp the sky’s the limit. With the insane hp from 2.0 liter turbo 4 now, you could make an Elise 4 cylinder with 500hp. The Exige Cup 430 with the supercharged V6 is about perfect for me. I’d have one tomorrow if they imported them. I’d cut the two holes for the soft top stays (each about the size of a quarter) and fit an Elise top like I did on my Exige S and I’d commute in it. Even if it is heavier than the Elise by a few hundred pounds.
Back to porsche, Porsche has been showing pictures of the original berg spyder and the 981 based prototype, so at least in theory they get it. I would leave all the passive safety behind, make a car the size of a Caterham, and turn up the wick. I don’t need woven leather and leather on a roll cage (singer), I don’t need 6 airbags, and I don’t need any screens. Simplify and add lightness.
I will leave this right here.
“Simplify and add lightness.”
Unlike stout, I found the Elise to be a wonderful commuter. It got great gas mileage, parts were cheap, maintenance was cheap, tires and brakes were cheap, it was easy enough to work on, you could get groceries in the trunk and passenger seat, it was reliable enough (ok so it blew an engine, but the oil cooler was later recalled, and they all needed radiators ....) and it is structurally sound enough to survive a roll over. My only complaints were that there were no nannies to turn off (see my last like), it had to be on full boil (6200rpm plus) to get any power, and 6th gear was way too steep ok the highway. The first one got fixed post US importation, the second was fixed with the Exige S supercharger (loved that car except you could not see out the back, the Elise supercharged you could), and the last complaint can be fixed with a celica 6th gear swap. Oh ya, 2000lbs.
The entire interior and seats weighed maybe 80lbs. The only quirk was seat rock, but that could be cured with a fixed RHD passenger seat mount for the driver. I was fine with the blaupunct radio and 4 speaker, the alpine in the Exige S was even better. Heater was an aspirational rather than descriptive term. Ya, the AC was terrible, but it was fine too. The top (hard or soft) dripped a little water in heavy rain, but there was nothing to ruin inside anyway (I did lose a nice tie one time).
To me, that’s the bogey. 2000lbs and for hp the sky’s the limit. With the insane hp from 2.0 liter turbo 4 now, you could make an Elise 4 cylinder with 500hp. The Exige Cup 430 with the supercharged V6 is about perfect for me. I’d have one tomorrow if they imported them. I’d cut the two holes for the soft top stays (each about the size of a quarter) and fit an Elise top like I did on my Exige S and I’d commute in it. Even if it is heavier than the Elise by a few hundred pounds.
Back to porsche, Porsche has been showing pictures of the original berg spyder and the 981 based prototype, so at least in theory they get it. I would leave all the passive safety behind, make a car the size of a Caterham, and turn up the wick. I don’t need woven leather and leather on a roll cage (singer), I don’t need 6 airbags, and I don’t need any screens. Simplify and add lightness.
I will leave this right here.
06-02-2019, 11:15 PM
#33
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I've recently been going through this process myself making all the decisions for my 73 RSR backdate. Do I want power windows cause that adds about 90lbs. Do I want engine extracted heating, cause that costs HP. Literally every decision is a compromise of functionality/power/weight. I'll be at around 2300lbs and 370ish rwhp, but not much in the way or luxuries, and even less in the way of safety (no abs, no nannies of any kind, no power steering, no airbags, etc).
06-03-2019, 12:06 AM
#34
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Thread Starter
All will be revealed in due course.
But from the outside spec wise it will look identical to this one but in Leaf Green.
Modern supercars are amazing machines, and unreasonable power is a notable elixir, heck my 19 M5 Comp is basically a four door 991 TTS ... but because of all the tech 150mph feels like 75, and I'm trying to get back to when 75mph felt like 150. (btw that's also why the chassis is from a 79 and not 964, as the former results in maximum 'rawness')
But from the outside spec wise it will look identical to this one but in Leaf Green.
Modern supercars are amazing machines, and unreasonable power is a notable elixir, heck my 19 M5 Comp is basically a four door 991 TTS ... but because of all the tech 150mph feels like 75, and I'm trying to get back to when 75mph felt like 150.
(btw that's also why the chassis is from a 79 and not 964, as the former results in maximum 'rawness')
06-03-2019, 05:04 AM
#35
Race Director
Originally Posted by Petevb
As another owner/ builder of a couple early hot rods you know I agree, though I tend to think the biggest challenge is no longer weight, it’s size. Perhaps your experience with the CGT has led you to a different conclusion, but as great as they are I suspect my ideal dream car could never be 991 or 992 shaped even if it were made of carbon.
....
....
And spent some time looking at it... I'm just collecting funds for a home in SF first before I make the jump but this is pretty much perfection to my eyes. In Meissen Blue
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...assis-details/
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...e-911-formula/
Last edited by CAlexio; 06-03-2019 at 05:53 AM.
06-03-2019, 06:16 AM
#36
06-03-2019, 06:30 AM
#37
There are still some modern lightweight smaller cars offerings that give a lot of the old car thrills with modern tech. Lotus, Alpine a110, Alfa Romeo 4c, Caterham/Lotus 7, Atom (less so), Wiesmann, Morgans (they look heavy but they are quite light). Hell the spyder is quite nice on it's weight and power.
Then there are the maccas, throw inconel, lightweight wheels and a lightweight spec and it gets light on it's feet.
Then there are the maccas, throw inconel, lightweight wheels and a lightweight spec and it gets light on it's feet.
06-03-2019, 06:49 AM
#38
Agreed that a 918 is much too fast to enjoy on the road. Even on the track, I have seen wheelspin at 125 mph in a straight line. The 918 exists as a mad-cap twin-engined car bridging the two eras of petrol and electric. Everything before is petrol and everything after will be electric. The twin-engined petrol+electric combination captures a moment in time in between and will likely never be repeated again. It is fantastic on the autobahn, fantastic on the racetrack, and lots of fun on an airstrip or dragstrip. And very cool if you appreciate its incredible technology. But on American public roads, a 918 is a spaceship among biplanes.
In the middle of this unusable 1000 hp road car madness, Porsche already makes a small lightweight 964-sized sportscar with the right amount of horsepower. and all the modern safety features..the Cayman GT4. It is about the same size as a 964. And it is just about 3000lbs with a full tank of fuel. And a manual. And has all the modern safety features - ABS, airbags, stability control, etc.
My only complaints with a GT4 are its "good but not great" engine (compared to a GT3/RS), and crazy long gearing.
It would be fantastic if Porsche builds a 718 GT4/Spyder with a more intense engine and appropriately short gearing.
If not, I will call up DeMan and make my own for a lot less than a RUF or Singer or anything based on a classic 911.
In the middle of this unusable 1000 hp road car madness, Porsche already makes a small lightweight 964-sized sportscar with the right amount of horsepower. and all the modern safety features..the Cayman GT4. It is about the same size as a 964. And it is just about 3000lbs with a full tank of fuel. And a manual. And has all the modern safety features - ABS, airbags, stability control, etc.
My only complaints with a GT4 are its "good but not great" engine (compared to a GT3/RS), and crazy long gearing.
It would be fantastic if Porsche builds a 718 GT4/Spyder with a more intense engine and appropriately short gearing.
If not, I will call up DeMan and make my own
for a lot less than a RUF or Singer or anything based on a classic 911.
06-03-2019, 09:01 AM
#39
Lots of people claim they want lightness, but aren't willing to pay for it. It's expensive - how many would seriously pay $100k more for a 992 3RS that saved 100lbs but the rest was the same? At most about 50% of customer orders included the WP - many were dealer orders. Many still don't want PCCB - the customer base has spoken and doesn't want to pay up for it.
06-03-2019, 11:19 AM
#40
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Lots of people claim they want lightness, but aren't willing to pay for it. It's expensive - how many would seriously pay $100k more for a 992 3RS that saved 100lbs but the rest was the same? At most about 50% of customer orders included the WP - many were dealer orders. Many still don't want PCCB - the customer base has spoken and doesn't want to pay up for it.
Last edited by GrantG; 06-03-2019 at 11:52 AM.
06-03-2019, 11:32 AM
#41
What good is 1000hp with 55 speed limit, stiff speeding penalties and bad roads... Even 500hp is way too fast. For me lighter with moderate HP increase works better.
06-03-2019, 02:09 PM
#42
Former Vendor
Remember when the 1985 Mustang GT went over 200 hp from 4.9 liters for $9,885, and 200 hp was suddenly the new 100 hp? And when jaws dropped at the production 1996 993 Turbo with 400 hp, and then when the 2004 GT3 got within 20 hp on the same 3.6 liters without the turbos?
With that said, count me among those who would rather see weight go down than power go up. Too bad it isn't as easy…
With that said, count me among those who would rather see weight go down than power go up. Too bad it isn't as easy…
06-03-2019, 05:21 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
I did have a good giggle in that Forester...
06-03-2019, 07:26 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
Lots of people claim they want lightness, but aren't willing to pay for it. It's expensive - how many would seriously pay $100k more for a 992 3RS that saved 100lbs but the rest was the same? At most about 50% of customer orders included the WP - many were dealer orders. Many still don't want PCCB - the customer base has spoken and doesn't want to pay up for it.
I'm willing to pay an extra 30-40K for a CF frame like mclaren which saves 300lbs, not pay 20K to save just 10-20 lbs like the 991.2 WP options for the RS.
Porsche would rather rape us to save tiny amounts of weight rather than do the RD to provide a CF frame option for a reasonable amount of $
06-03-2019, 09:51 PM
#45
Race Director
How much more can the human body take? 2000 hp, 3000 hp? At some point people start passing out.