How much higher will the horsepower wars go?
06-04-2019, 12:03 AM
#46
Drifting
Porsche also charged through the nose to save us only 10-20 lbs.
I'm willing to pay an extra 30-40K for a CF frame like mclaren which saves 300lbs, not pay 20K to save just 10-20 lbs like the 991.2 WP options for the RS.
Porsche would rather rape us to save tiny amounts of weight rather than do the RD to provide a CF frame option for a reasonable amount of $
I'm willing to pay an extra 30-40K for a CF frame like mclaren which saves 300lbs, not pay 20K to save just 10-20 lbs like the 991.2 WP options for the RS.
Porsche would rather rape us to save tiny amounts of weight rather than do the RD to provide a CF frame option for a reasonable amount of $
There are many reasons beyond cost that have led Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc. to eschew employing carbon fiber tub construction in their relatively volume-oriented products; a few include:
Noise, vibration, and harshness / resonance
Insurance (ability to insure and cost of insurance)
Repair viability
Door sill size and attendant impact on ingress / egress
In the case of the 911 in particular, the Carrera S carries a base price of $113K in the US. Many consumers expect to be able to operate a 911 relatively affordably and utilize the car as a daily driver / sole vehicle. How would the typical consumer of a Carrera S feel if the car were deemed a total loss after a relatively minor parking lot accident that damaged the tub? How would they feel about a car with large door sills that made entry and exit more difficult? How would they feel about increased resonance in the passenger compartment? How would they feel about higher insurance premia?
Obvious next question, what if the Motorsport models were built with a carbon fiber tub? I.e., an entirely different body in white (really, an entirely different car). Without the ability to amortize production and development costs over the totality of the 911 production, how expensive would the Motorsport models be, and how expensive would the “regular” 911s be?
06-04-2019, 01:57 AM
#47
SJW, a Carin' kinda guy
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A carbon tub is not needed. Both lotus and Morgan build very lightweight chassis out of glued and riveted aluminium. It’s a level of tech that can actually be done anywhere at reasonable cost. I forget which one it was, but one or the other said going to carbon would save something like 20lbs.
I have to say, I had very high hopes for the new plus 8, but Morgan went for the pedestrian BMW turbo 6 with an auto and still no word of it coming to the US.
Anyway, you can see my shopping list in my signature. 09 Exige S260 or an 07 and up Morgan Aero 8. Those two cars are peak modern lightness, at least the peak I can afford comfortably.
. I’d even take either with a blown motor as I can swap a lotus motor now that I have done it once, and an S62 would take an Aero 8 to perfection.
The sad thing is, we will never see cars like this in the US again as they were all killed by DOT regs. Has anyone bought an SCR in the US? I know there are a few RUF VIN modern cars floating around, but I don’t know what is DOT and EPA approved now.
I have to say, I had very high hopes for the new plus 8, but Morgan went for the pedestrian BMW turbo 6 with an auto and still no word of it coming to the US.
Anyway, you can see my shopping list in my signature. 09 Exige S260 or an 07 and up Morgan Aero 8. Those two cars are peak modern lightness, at least the peak I can afford comfortably.
. I’d even take either with a blown motor as I can swap a lotus motor now that I have done it once, and an S62 would take an Aero 8 to perfection.The sad thing is, we will never see cars like this in the US again as they were all killed by DOT regs. Has anyone bought an SCR in the US? I know there are a few RUF VIN modern cars floating around, but I don’t know what is DOT and EPA approved now.
06-04-2019, 03:22 AM
#48
GT3 player par excellence
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Modern supercars are amazing machines…but because of all the tech 150mph feels like 75, and I'm trying to get back to when 75mph felt like 150
your project car will change all that and scare you in a good way.
hard to describe.
it can only be understood once driven
your project car will change all that and scare you in a good way.
hard to describe.
it can only be understood once driven
06-04-2019, 04:19 AM
#49
Rennlist Member
How did I miss such a thread!
I have cars ranging from 240HP all the way up to 887HP.
HP is not the whole story, torque is. 918 has the most HP and also the most torque. Also the heaviest. But those electric torque mask the weight very well, so did Porsche's engineering, it handles amazingly on track. It was the fastest car in the world for a while, and it didn't get there by just having HP and torque.
I love that car, will never part with it. It is one of the greatest top 5 cars from Porsche ever. BUT it's not my favourite.
My 94 Turbo 3.6 only has 360HP, also not the lightest thing, but it has it's quirks and charms. My favourite to drive on the street, despite the gigantic turbo lag.
The little Alfa 4C only have 240HP, but it weights next to nothing. A bit of a compromise on the street, not the fastest thing on the track either but it is very enjoyable on the track, and on the track I never wish for it to have more power, strange but true. It also excel at carving canyon roads. Wonderful little machine.
My GT4 ClubSport only has 385HP, but on track sessions against other high HP cars it cleans the table in a hurry. It's so easy to drive it fast on a track. Not exactly lightweight, but it handles superbly. It will also do laps faster than the 918.
Widowmaker is coming home soon and I can't wait to get it back on the track. With 700HP it is quite simply too much for street use. Saving grace for it for street use is the abundance torque in any gear. But the only place to enjoy the car fully is on a track. It's much better than the old GT2/GT2RS but it still will be a handful, and taming it on track gives supreme satisfaction.
My old .1 GT3RS is almost the perfect street/track car. Extremely capable on the track yet almost there for the street. Still sprung too stiff though. Also wish it has a bit more torque.
The Exclusive is 'almost' the perfect car. Well I can include the Turbo S in the conversation also. 580/607HP practically the same. Only thing that held it back on track is the abysmal PZeros. Give it some Cup2s and I will be a happy camper. It will holds it's own on track against most cars, and it also just about the perfect street car. The secret? The wide meaty torque curve. Like the GT2RS, there is practically no turbo lag, any throttle input is instantaneous.
At the end of the day, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900HP doesn't really matters. And the higher isn't better. It's more about the complete package. Koenigsegg routinely have more than 1000HP on any given model, and those Tesla Model X have what 680HP or whatever. But no one call them enjoyable cars. Well outside of simply minded monkeys that can only drive in a straight line.
If the package is right, as little as 240HP is already enough.
My second thought would be 450-500HP is the sweet spot. As it happens, Porsche already have such a thing, it's the GT3. No one serious needs more HP than that. My Cup car only has 485HP and it will lap faster than anything I have. If only I can plate the thing for street use. I will be in heaven on canyon roads.
I have cars ranging from 240HP all the way up to 887HP.
HP is not the whole story, torque is. 918 has the most HP and also the most torque. Also the heaviest. But those electric torque mask the weight very well, so did Porsche's engineering, it handles amazingly on track. It was the fastest car in the world for a while, and it didn't get there by just having HP and torque.
I love that car, will never part with it. It is one of the greatest top 5 cars from Porsche ever. BUT it's not my favourite.
My 94 Turbo 3.6 only has 360HP, also not the lightest thing, but it has it's quirks and charms. My favourite to drive on the street, despite the gigantic turbo lag.
The little Alfa 4C only have 240HP, but it weights next to nothing. A bit of a compromise on the street, not the fastest thing on the track either but it is very enjoyable on the track, and on the track I never wish for it to have more power, strange but true. It also excel at carving canyon roads. Wonderful little machine.
My GT4 ClubSport only has 385HP, but on track sessions against other high HP cars it cleans the table in a hurry. It's so easy to drive it fast on a track. Not exactly lightweight, but it handles superbly. It will also do laps faster than the 918.
Widowmaker is coming home soon and I can't wait to get it back on the track. With 700HP it is quite simply too much for street use. Saving grace for it for street use is the abundance torque in any gear. But the only place to enjoy the car fully is on a track. It's much better than the old GT2/GT2RS but it still will be a handful, and taming it on track gives supreme satisfaction.
My old .1 GT3RS is almost the perfect street/track car. Extremely capable on the track yet almost there for the street. Still sprung too stiff though. Also wish it has a bit more torque.
The Exclusive is 'almost' the perfect car. Well I can include the Turbo S in the conversation also. 580/607HP practically the same. Only thing that held it back on track is the abysmal PZeros. Give it some Cup2s and I will be a happy camper. It will holds it's own on track against most cars, and it also just about the perfect street car. The secret? The wide meaty torque curve. Like the GT2RS, there is practically no turbo lag, any throttle input is instantaneous.
At the end of the day, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900HP doesn't really matters. And the higher isn't better. It's more about the complete package. Koenigsegg routinely have more than 1000HP on any given model, and those Tesla Model X have what 680HP or whatever. But no one call them enjoyable cars. Well outside of simply minded monkeys that can only drive in a straight line.
If the package is right, as little as 240HP is already enough.
My second thought would be 450-500HP is the sweet spot. As it happens, Porsche already have such a thing, it's the GT3. No one serious needs more HP than that. My Cup car only has 485HP and it will lap faster than anything I have. If only I can plate the thing for street use. I will be in heaven on canyon roads.
06-04-2019, 07:27 AM
#50
Three Wheelin'
Very nice, Soulsea! I've recently begun to have rebuilt the 2.7RS+ in my 73 911 (mash-up of Carrera RS and 911RM concepts with CF panels). Mechanically Injected motor in my car getting new billet crank and rods, fresh Magnesium case, etc. But still aiming to stay well under 2,000 pounds wet (~250hp and 210 ft-lbs). Custom gear ratios, LSD, electric cooler, and totally built Magnesium 915 from WEVO (with everything they make and assembled by owner, Hayden), 930 brakes, RSR coilovers, 935-style rear suspension, etc. Very fun cars and a great companion to a new Manual GT3 (makes for a more interesting contrast that a GT4, as discussed on another thread).
06-05-2019, 01:26 AM
#51
Rennlist Member
How did I miss such a thread!
I have cars ranging from 240HP all the way up to 887HP.
HP is not the whole story, torque is. 918 has the most HP and also the most torque. Also the heaviest. But those electric torque mask the weight very well, so did Porsche's engineering, it handles amazingly on track. It was the fastest car in the world for a while, and it didn't get there by just having HP and torque.
I love that car, will never part with it. It is one of the greatest top 5 cars from Porsche ever. BUT it's not my favourite.
My 94 Turbo 3.6 only has 360HP, also not the lightest thing, but it has it's quirks and charms. My favourite to drive on the street, despite the gigantic turbo lag.
The little Alfa 4C only have 240HP, but it weights next to nothing. A bit of a compromise on the street, not the fastest thing on the track either but it is very enjoyable on the track, and on the track I never wish for it to have more power, strange but true. It also excel at carving canyon roads. Wonderful little machine.
My GT4 ClubSport only has 385HP, but on track sessions against other high HP cars it cleans the table in a hurry. It's so easy to drive it fast on a track. Not exactly lightweight, but it handles superbly. It will also do laps faster than the 918.
Widowmaker is coming home soon and I can't wait to get it back on the track. With 700HP it is quite simply too much for street use. Saving grace for it for street use is the abundance torque in any gear. But the only place to enjoy the car fully is on a track. It's much better than the old GT2/GT2RS but it still will be a handful, and taming it on track gives supreme satisfaction.
My old .1 GT3RS is almost the perfect street/track car. Extremely capable on the track yet almost there for the street. Still sprung too stiff though. Also wish it has a bit more torque.
The Exclusive is 'almost' the perfect car. Well I can include the Turbo S in the conversation also. 580/607HP practically the same. Only thing that held it back on track is the abysmal PZeros. Give it some Cup2s and I will be a happy camper. It will holds it's own on track against most cars, and it also just about the perfect street car. The secret? The wide meaty torque curve. Like the GT2RS, there is practically no turbo lag, any throttle input is instantaneous.
At the end of the day, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900HP doesn't really matters. And the higher isn't better. It's more about the complete package. Koenigsegg routinely have more than 1000HP on any given model, and those Tesla Model X have what 680HP or whatever. But no one call them enjoyable cars. Well outside of simply minded monkeys that can only drive in a straight line.
If the package is right, as little as 240HP is already enough.
My second thought would be 450-500HP is the sweet spot. As it happens, Porsche already have such a thing, it's the GT3. No one serious needs more HP than that. My Cup car only has 485HP and it will lap faster than anything I have. If only I can plate the thing for street use. I will be in heaven on canyon roads.
I have cars ranging from 240HP all the way up to 887HP.
HP is not the whole story, torque is. 918 has the most HP and also the most torque. Also the heaviest. But those electric torque mask the weight very well, so did Porsche's engineering, it handles amazingly on track. It was the fastest car in the world for a while, and it didn't get there by just having HP and torque.
I love that car, will never part with it. It is one of the greatest top 5 cars from Porsche ever. BUT it's not my favourite.
My 94 Turbo 3.6 only has 360HP, also not the lightest thing, but it has it's quirks and charms. My favourite to drive on the street, despite the gigantic turbo lag.
The little Alfa 4C only have 240HP, but it weights next to nothing. A bit of a compromise on the street, not the fastest thing on the track either but it is very enjoyable on the track, and on the track I never wish for it to have more power, strange but true. It also excel at carving canyon roads. Wonderful little machine.
My GT4 ClubSport only has 385HP, but on track sessions against other high HP cars it cleans the table in a hurry. It's so easy to drive it fast on a track. Not exactly lightweight, but it handles superbly. It will also do laps faster than the 918.
Widowmaker is coming home soon and I can't wait to get it back on the track. With 700HP it is quite simply too much for street use. Saving grace for it for street use is the abundance torque in any gear. But the only place to enjoy the car fully is on a track. It's much better than the old GT2/GT2RS but it still will be a handful, and taming it on track gives supreme satisfaction.
My old .1 GT3RS is almost the perfect street/track car. Extremely capable on the track yet almost there for the street. Still sprung too stiff though. Also wish it has a bit more torque.
The Exclusive is 'almost' the perfect car. Well I can include the Turbo S in the conversation also. 580/607HP practically the same. Only thing that held it back on track is the abysmal PZeros. Give it some Cup2s and I will be a happy camper. It will holds it's own on track against most cars, and it also just about the perfect street car. The secret? The wide meaty torque curve. Like the GT2RS, there is practically no turbo lag, any throttle input is instantaneous.
At the end of the day, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900HP doesn't really matters. And the higher isn't better. It's more about the complete package. Koenigsegg routinely have more than 1000HP on any given model, and those Tesla Model X have what 680HP or whatever. But no one call them enjoyable cars. Well outside of simply minded monkeys that can only drive in a straight line.
If the package is right, as little as 240HP is already enough.
My second thought would be 450-500HP is the sweet spot. As it happens, Porsche already have such a thing, it's the GT3. No one serious needs more HP than that. My Cup car only has 485HP and it will lap faster than anything I have. If only I can plate the thing for street use. I will be in heaven on canyon roads.
Also so great to hear that in lieu of such an amazing garage, the next best thing is to just own a GT3!
Which I have covered....
Last edited by Drifting; 06-05-2019 at 12:37 PM.
06-05-2019, 08:22 PM
#53
06-05-2019, 08:52 PM
#54
Addict
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06-05-2019, 08:59 PM
#55
SJW, a Carin' kinda guy
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The Murray car will be drivable on the street. Completely different than the Valkyrie even if it is street legal. How either one get past regs and emissions is beyond me, but I am not an engineer.
06-05-2019, 09:10 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
How much more power? So much more I’ve complete lost interest.
The key for me is balance and fun factor and current stable has that in spades. It’s not all about the horsepower or grip.
The key for me is balance and fun factor and current stable has that in spades. It’s not all about the horsepower or grip.
06-06-2019, 11:14 AM
#57
Race Director
Originally Posted by evilfij
The Murray car will be drivable on the street. Completely different than the Valkyrie even if it is street legal. How either one get past regs and emissions is beyond me, but I am not an engineer.
Originally Posted by Spyerx
How much more power? So much more I’ve complete lost interest.
The key for me is balance and fun factor and current stable has that in spades. It’s not all about the horsepower or grip.
The key for me is balance and fun factor and current stable has that in spades. It’s not all about the horsepower or grip.
I was texting with Gordon earlier, and I asked him why the rotors were so small. he told me that his vision of "virtuous cycle" with the light weight car allowing for super light and small brakes, and super light wheels is being actualized with this project. Talk about balance...
06-06-2019, 11:33 AM
#58
Addict
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I was texting with Gordon earlier, and I asked him why the rotors were so small. he told me that his vision of "virtuous cycle" with the light weight car allowing for super light and small brakes, and super light wheels is being actualized with this project. Talk about balance...
And the best way to begin down the path of lightness is to use a small chassis (this car is very small by modern standards, although it holds 50% more people than a GT3)
06-06-2019, 05:27 PM
#59
To increase agility with all that extra weight/hp, newer cars have rear wheel steering. Does RWS increase or reduce driving engagement? Does it feel more connected/exciting because you can turn in faster or does it feel less connected?
06-06-2019, 05:36 PM
#60
Addict
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It turns in quicker while parking and while taking very slow corners...
https://www.total911.com/sales-debat...7-prices-fall/