2018 GT3 vs 2019 GT3 on track- actively updating
11-03-2018, 11:08 AM
#91
Nordschleife Master
And waxer how many people actually 'road race' these GT3's and GT3 RS's?
And I promise you... if the better driver is in the MT car.. it doesn't matter how long the event is... the faster driver is the faster driver.
PDK makes it easier, and can be a tenth or two quicker all out... and maybe more than that if someone doesn't know how to shift.
Most are doing DE events (of the small % that even take theirs on a track) and are lucky to be out for 15 minutes, and might get 10 minutes of clean lap time.
Drive what you enjoy.
Best Regards,
Dave
And I promise you... if the better driver is in the MT car.. it doesn't matter how long the event is... the faster driver is the faster driver.
PDK makes it easier, and can be a tenth or two quicker all out... and maybe more than that if someone doesn't know how to shift.
Most are doing DE events (of the small % that even take theirs on a track) and are lucky to be out for 15 minutes, and might get 10 minutes of clean lap time.
Drive what you enjoy.
Best Regards,
Dave
However, I think we should be able to agree that for pure track times the PDK is the better box. PAG clearly thinks so. We should be able to agree they and their engineers and factory drivers are experts in this realm. I think I would have 0 problem qualifying them as such experts in a courtroom.
While the faster driver will always be the faster driver no matter which car he is in, if both drivers are equal and assuming everything else equal...advantage would be with PDK if one car is PDK. No?
Here is emphatical proof PDK and sequential are the better box from a pure track performance standpoint (PDK is so good now it's like a sequential for all intents and purposes).
1. No race team in FIA or IMSA runs a MT. Not one that I know of anyway. Shining example is the fact that all factory race cars that I know of even the new Mustang GT4 are sequential. No more slush box like with the previuos gen Boss 302S or 302R. There is a reason for that. Lap times and driver concentration.
2. Driver concentration. If you have ever read Keith Codes book on motorcycle safety you know that our concentration ability is finite. We can only provide 100% to the tasks we are undertaking at any one time. That concentration is divided among the sub tasks involved in that overall task. Eg. 50% to situational awareness, 20% to braking, 20% to steering, 10% to shifting. If chit starts to happen around you your concentration on that situation draws from your concentration on lets say.. shifting. Now more chance for error with MT gear change. PDK requires less concentration therefore less chance of error and allows you to devote more concentration to other tasks therefore perhaps even allowing you to avoid that chit situation to begin with.
3. Because PDK frees up concentration percentages to be applied elsewhere it will improve the below average and average drivers laps times allowing more concentration to be devoted to other tasks.
Do I love MT's? Yup. I own more MT cars than PDK cars and my race cars that I run at the track are both analogue hammer and chisel Mustangs. No sequential boxes there. They are still very fast in the right hands (not mine
) with the Boss 302 TA running near 2:00 at Watkins and in the 57's at Lime Rock. I love them both and love driving the MT on the track and honing my heal toe and braking skills (still honing 
). They are a blast. Now they are "old school" for sure. Do I believe I could cut faster times if I could convert both to sequentials? Me vs. Me? You bet. That's the point of sequential and PDK. It allows you to be better by freeing up more concentration not just because of the shifts are faster...which they are.
11-03-2018, 11:56 AM
#92
11-03-2018, 12:14 PM
#93
Updated Times based on video timing... we didn't have a GPS timer - it didn't work that day. The hand timing was clearly off.. Verified twice on the GT3 video, used 3 different angles on all other cars to verify lap times.
GT3 1:48:18
GT2RS 1:47:05
675LT 1:47:09
720S 1:46:59
Again.. just to reiterate... CJ drove these cars only for 4-6 laps in one session. No shenanigans with changing pressures. Basically pump fuel (except GT3).
MUCH Thanks to Turn one Club which CJ and I are members of.
He didn't have much time with any car.
Have fun.. can't wait for us to release our final video..
GT3 1:48:18
GT2RS 1:47:05
675LT 1:47:09
720S 1:46:59
Again.. just to reiterate... CJ drove these cars only for 4-6 laps in one session. No shenanigans with changing pressures. Basically pump fuel (except GT3).
MUCH Thanks to Turn one Club which CJ and I are members of.
He didn't have much time with any car.
Have fun.. can't wait for us to release our final video..
11-03-2018, 12:38 PM
#94
Maybe I'm selling CJ short but, I can't help but think from the perspective of a dealer, any expensive option is better.
I plan to keep my GT3 for life. From a pure cost perspective, I don't plan to spend $20k when I have to swap out every 100k miles or so when the stopping difference and feel is negligible from multiple reviews. I don't track enough to care about unsprung weight and, having no brake dust just doesn't seem like enough reason to pick the PCCBs at $7-$8k at purchase and $20k a pop for replacement thereafter. And, I'm not going to bring up the clash in color yellow brings about.
That said, it would be nice if a 991.1 GT3 was thrown in that mix:
720S- 1.47 (1.30pm)
GT3RS- 1.47.3 (215pm)
675- 1.47.5 (1130am)
GT3- 1.48 (1015am)
Thanks for posting the results CJ.
Dan (likes his red stitching, red brakes and, red tail lights)
I plan to keep my GT3 for life. From a pure cost perspective, I don't plan to spend $20k when I have to swap out every 100k miles or so when the stopping difference and feel is negligible from multiple reviews. I don't track enough to care about unsprung weight and, having no brake dust just doesn't seem like enough reason to pick the PCCBs at $7-$8k at purchase and $20k a pop for replacement thereafter. And, I'm not going to bring up the clash in color yellow brings about.
That said, it would be nice if a 991.1 GT3 was thrown in that mix:
720S- 1.47 (1.30pm)
GT3RS- 1.47.3 (215pm)
675- 1.47.5 (1130am)
GT3- 1.48 (1015am)
Thanks for posting the results CJ.
Dan (likes his red stitching, red brakes and, red tail lights)
And since I own a GT3.. IT IS THE BEST CAR EVAAARRRR
11-03-2018, 12:38 PM
#95
Pro
Dave: All good points.
However, I think we should be able to agree that for pure track times the PDK is the better box. PAG clearly thinks so. We should be able to agree they and their engineers and factory drivers are experts in this realm. I think I would have 0 problem qualifying them as such experts in a courtroom.
While the faster driver will always be the faster driver no matter which car he is in, if both drivers are equal and assuming everything else equal...advantage would be with PDK if one car is PDK. No?
Here is emphatical proof PDK and sequential are the better box from a pure track performance standpoint (PDK is so good now it's like a sequential for all intents and purposes).
1. No race team in FIA or IMSA runs a MT. Not one that I know of anyway. Shining example is the fact that all factory race cars that I know of even the new Mustang GT4 are sequential. No more slush box like with the previuos gen Boss 302S or 302R. There is a reason for that. Lap times and driver concentration.
2. Driver concentration. If you have ever read Keith Codes book on motorcycle safety you know that our concentration ability is finite. We can only provide 100% to the tasks we are undertaking at any one time. That concentration is divided among the sub tasks involved in that overall task. Eg. 50% to situational awareness, 20% to braking, 20% to steering, 10% to shifting. If chit starts to happen around you your concentration on that situation draws from your concentration on lets say.. shifting. Now more chance for error with MT gear change. PDK requires less concentration therefore less chance of error and allows you to devote more concentration to other tasks therefore perhaps even allowing you to avoid that chit situation to begin with.
3. Because PDK frees up concentration percentages to be applied elsewhere it will improve the below average and average drivers laps times allowing more concentration to be devoted to other tasks.
Do I love MT's? Yup. I own more MT cars than PDK cars and my race cars that I run at the track are both analogue hammer and chisel Mustangs. No sequential boxes there. They are still very fast in the right hands (not mine ) with the Boss 302 TA running near 2:00 at Watkins and in the 57's at Lime Rock. I love them both and love driving the MT on the track and honing my heal toe and braking skills (still honing ). They are a blast. Now they are "old school" for sure. Do I believe I could cut faster times if I could convert both to sequentials? Me vs. Me? You bet. That's the point of sequential and PDK. It allows you to be better by freeing up more concentration not just because of the shifts are faster...which they are.
However, I think we should be able to agree that for pure track times the PDK is the better box. PAG clearly thinks so. We should be able to agree they and their engineers and factory drivers are experts in this realm. I think I would have 0 problem qualifying them as such experts in a courtroom.
While the faster driver will always be the faster driver no matter which car he is in, if both drivers are equal and assuming everything else equal...advantage would be with PDK if one car is PDK. No?
Here is emphatical proof PDK and sequential are the better box from a pure track performance standpoint (PDK is so good now it's like a sequential for all intents and purposes).
1. No race team in FIA or IMSA runs a MT. Not one that I know of anyway. Shining example is the fact that all factory race cars that I know of even the new Mustang GT4 are sequential. No more slush box like with the previuos gen Boss 302S or 302R. There is a reason for that. Lap times and driver concentration.
2. Driver concentration. If you have ever read Keith Codes book on motorcycle safety you know that our concentration ability is finite. We can only provide 100% to the tasks we are undertaking at any one time. That concentration is divided among the sub tasks involved in that overall task. Eg. 50% to situational awareness, 20% to braking, 20% to steering, 10% to shifting. If chit starts to happen around you your concentration on that situation draws from your concentration on lets say.. shifting. Now more chance for error with MT gear change. PDK requires less concentration therefore less chance of error and allows you to devote more concentration to other tasks therefore perhaps even allowing you to avoid that chit situation to begin with.
3. Because PDK frees up concentration percentages to be applied elsewhere it will improve the below average and average drivers laps times allowing more concentration to be devoted to other tasks.
Do I love MT's? Yup. I own more MT cars than PDK cars and my race cars that I run at the track are both analogue hammer and chisel Mustangs. No sequential boxes there. They are still very fast in the right hands (not mine
) with the Boss 302 TA running near 2:00 at Watkins and in the 57's at Lime Rock. I love them both and love driving the MT on the track and honing my heal toe and braking skills (still honing ). They are a blast. Now they are "old school" for sure. Do I believe I could cut faster times if I could convert both to sequentials? Me vs. Me? You bet. That's the point of sequential and PDK. It allows you to be better by freeing up more concentration not just because of the shifts are faster...which they are.1. No race team in FIA or IMSA uses PDK either, they use a real sequential gear box!
2. What's lost in your argument, is the power lost to the PDK vs manual. I'd be willing to bet, for one hot lap, winging it out for just the best lap time, and a competent enough driver, the manual would eek out the quicker lap time.
3. If racing for 30 minutes, I do believe the PDK would be better, just due to less fatigue and improved consistency, agree with you there.
4. And just to throw a curve ball, I'd almost be willing to bet PAG includes PDK in almost everything as not only a performance enhancement, but more so as a warranty protection, from missed gears and over revs.
Best Regards,
Dave
11-03-2018, 12:39 PM
#96
11-03-2018, 12:52 PM
#97
Nordschleife Master
Responding via my phone so forgive the formatting.
1. No race team in FIA or IMSA uses PDK either, they use a real sequential gear box!
Correcto! Agree. They use real sequenital. But PDK is the "sequential" for non dedicated street cars. My point is that PDK are sequential like in their performance application now for performance street cars intended for track use.
2. What's lost in your argument, is the power lost to the PDK vs manual. I'd be willing to bet, for one hot lap, winging it out for just the best lap time, and a competent enough driver, the manual would eek out the quicker lap time.
Hmmm. Not sure I'm buying this one....but assuming I gave you this, hypothetically speaking that is, my bet is that average lap times for PDK are quicker everything equal and giving you the power advantage for MT and PDK shifting speed advantage.
3. If racing for 30 minutes, I do believe the PDK would be better, just due to less fatigue and improved consistency, agree with you there.
Finally, we are both right.
4. And just to throw a curve ball, I'd almost be willing to bet PAG includes PDK in almost everything as not only a performance enhancement, but more so as a warranty protection, from missed gears and over revs.
Your are correct Sir. 100% but..... doesn't the above further prove my point!
Best Regards,
Dave
11-03-2018, 01:39 PM
#99
Rennlist Member
11-03-2018, 02:42 PM
#100
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CJ, l LOVE IT!
These are the types of posts I wish I would see on rennlist all of the time. Very nice real world testing of 4 great cars all on the same day by a legit driver. I cant wait to see the videos!
Sonoma is the closest race track to me (only 45 minutes!), so know it fairly well and love the course. That track also seems to be the track that gives me the largest variables in terms of lap times. Some days I'll kill it, and other days I'm 3 seconds off. I'm not sure if it's just the technicality of the track that requires you to be ON your game, or if conditions make it highly variable.
In terms of ultimate lap times achievable there, I'm guessing the .2 GT3 is closer to 1:45 and the .2 RS a 1:44. I'm not saying I can do it, but based on times I've collected, that is what I'm extrapolating.
I've done 1:48.2 in my GT4 on RE71Rs. Both Andrie Hartanto and Dave Potter, our local hotshoes, did 1:47.x in their GT4s.
I did 1:47.4 in my 991.1 GT3 on MPSC2. A good driver and friend of mine has done 1:45.3 in his 991.2 GT3.
These are the types of posts I wish I would see on rennlist all of the time. Very nice real world testing of 4 great cars all on the same day by a legit driver. I cant wait to see the videos!
Sonoma is the closest race track to me (only 45 minutes!), so know it fairly well and love the course. That track also seems to be the track that gives me the largest variables in terms of lap times. Some days I'll kill it, and other days I'm 3 seconds off. I'm not sure if it's just the technicality of the track that requires you to be ON your game, or if conditions make it highly variable.
In terms of ultimate lap times achievable there, I'm guessing the .2 GT3 is closer to 1:45 and the .2 RS a 1:44. I'm not saying I can do it, but based on times I've collected, that is what I'm extrapolating.
I've done 1:48.2 in my GT4 on RE71Rs. Both Andrie Hartanto and Dave Potter, our local hotshoes, did 1:47.x in their GT4s.
I did 1:47.4 in my 991.1 GT3 on MPSC2. A good driver and friend of mine has done 1:45.3 in his 991.2 GT3.
This is just to point out that Sonoma is just very hard to get to 100% of what a car can do consistently due to blind corners, non-specific turn-in points, partial throttle and partial brake sections etc - all of what makes it harder to nail a consistent lap. So there is a lot of variance not even from day to day but even from session to session. It's so driver-dependent that even tiniest variations in driving are bigger than performance differences among those cars. So it's just not the best track to compare cars because the driver performance can introduce too much variance even at pro levels. Laguna is better for that - mostly point and shoot with little difference in times between laps or even different drivers in the same car.
Last edited by MaxLTV; 11-03-2018 at 02:59 PM.
11-03-2018, 03:48 PM
#101
Adding to Joe's data bank - here is 1:46.8 in a 991.1 GT3 (not RS) on MPSC2 on a hot day with some (lack of) confidence lifting in T9 and T1-T2 and too much sliding (the white rabbit in the front is the .2 GT3 that did 1:45.3 on another day).
This is just to point out that Sonoma is just very hard to get to 100% of what a car can do consistently due to blind corners, non-specific turn-in points, partial throttle and partial brake sections etc - all of what makes it harder to nail a consistent lap. So there is a lot of variance not even from day to day but even from session to session. It's so driver-dependent that even tiniest variations in driving are bigger than performance differences among those cars. So it's just not the best track to compare cars because the driver performance can introduce too much variance even at pro levels. Laguna is better for that - mostly point and shoot with little difference in times between laps or even different drivers in the same car.
https://youtu.be/JSs_fbDshug?t=116
This is just to point out that Sonoma is just very hard to get to 100% of what a car can do consistently due to blind corners, non-specific turn-in points, partial throttle and partial brake sections etc - all of what makes it harder to nail a consistent lap. So there is a lot of variance not even from day to day but even from session to session. It's so driver-dependent that even tiniest variations in driving are bigger than performance differences among those cars. So it's just not the best track to compare cars because the driver performance can introduce too much variance even at pro levels. Laguna is better for that - mostly point and shoot with little difference in times between laps or even different drivers in the same car.
https://youtu.be/JSs_fbDshug?t=116
All the reasons you mentioned is exactly *why* Sonoma is great. Part of a great car is also how much confidence it inspires in the driver to not have those chicken lifts in key areas that will cost time.
It's the same reason why people lose so much time T9 at T-Hill. Requires full confidence in the car and their skill to stay on the gas when the car lightens up.
For most drivers doing trackdays, confidence is the biggest barrier to improving. It's rarely the car.
11-03-2018, 04:13 PM
#102
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
11-03-2018, 04:23 PM
#103
Sonoma might not be the best for comparison purposes or for safety, but it sure is the most fun track to lap. I wish they had never changed the track, as the death layout was much more fun, but it’s still a gem.
11-03-2018, 04:26 PM
#104
Rennlist Member
^^ Ive had a couple discussions with the Michelin people in France and Germany buying tires at the track.
They’ve told me that best grip is 30-32PSI, that means going out on 20PSI.
Or come in after 3 laps to drop them again.
Ive tried going out on 26PSI and let them go to 38PSI and there is no grip.
I’ve never been able to make the rears last 16 sessions either, so like all else, go slow or spend the money to go fast..
They’ve told me that best grip is 30-32PSI, that means going out on 20PSI.
Or come in after 3 laps to drop them again.
Ive tried going out on 26PSI and let them go to 38PSI and there is no grip.
I’ve never been able to make the rears last 16 sessions either, so like all else, go slow or spend the money to go fast..
I found that at our local tracks, 25 psi cold Michelin will get to 32 psi. Dunlops heat up more and require lower cold pressure - 23 psi. By the time the tires get up to 29-30 psi after a few laps, you are already getting excellent grip and maintaining that level of performance as the pressure creeps towards 32-33 psi.
Even with these starting pressures, if you are abusing the tires, you can easily get them to spike in pressure/temperature. Not being smooth with the throttle application, or allowing the front end to go into understeer in low-speed corners due to too much steering angle, and the tires can easily spike to 36-38 psi at the abused corner. At that point, there is no grip at all.
11-03-2018, 04:44 PM
#105
Race Director
As far as which car is faster (pdk vs mt) i think in my case it was the guy in the miata who was up my *** at hpr.