matttheboatman

Grant, thank you for you kind response. But, I don't think you can extrapolate the NBR results to your local circuit. Most of the speed at the Ring comes from the driver's ability to run the car at the knife-edge of grip, not the quality of the transmission. It is not the same at the typical circuit in the US.

If it was less than 1 second, I don't think Porsche would have made the Cayman Clubsport with PDK. Heck, if it was only 1 second difference, the weight saving alone going to manual would equal 1 second. PDK is much faster.

At my home track of NOLA, the Clubsports complete the circuit in 1:46 - 1:49. No GT4 has ever gone below 1:56 even with slicks. Perhaps a bad comparison/ too many variables but we are talking some serious difference in time.

Nevertheless, I'm going to stick with my 3 second average on a typical 2:00 minute circuit.

GrantG

Clubsports are lighter, have much better suspension, and run on SLICKS. A street GT4 on Slicks would be a terrible match to the stock suspension - way too soft. Don't think you can even find slicks to fit on the GT4's rims...

GrantG

Hockenheim is a very tight technical track (the opposite of the NBR) and the Manual 911R (which Porsche purposely built to be smooth riding and "Not a Track Car") runs faster than the 991.1 GT3 with PDK-S on identical tires:

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/hockenheim-short

(See #35 and #39)

And the Manual 911R is only 0.6 slower than the 991 RS with PDK-S which has the same motor, but much better suspension, aero, and rubber (more of it)...

(See #23)

neanicu

In this case,it certainly doesn't have anything to do with my personal preference! If we're talking that,I'd tell you I have no problem being slower in a manual. But your previous claim is simply not true! 3 seconds on a 2 :00 min track is huge! And GrantG explained it much better than I can...

WenigerAberBeser

Wasn't the 991.2 gt3 PDK nearly 4 sec faster than the R on 1:35 min track, Anglesey ? Not apples but close

regardless, buy what puts a bigger smile on your face

also does anyone have resale data on manual vs dual clutch? A lot of people seem to think the manuals will resale for more but I haven't seen this in the marketplace if you look at the F80 m3s or other porsches that offered PDK and manual.

GrantG

That's really not apples nor close. Tires alone are hugely better on .2 GT3. The .2 is over 12 seconds faster than the .1 on the Ring (and only 0.7 slower than McLaren P1 at Anglesey Int'l)...

The fair comparison at Anglesey International is that the 911R was 0.6 sec slower than the 991.1 GT3 (both in the 991.1 family). Not as good a result as Hockenheim, but soft suspension and Manual not putting it where some might estimate:

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/anglesey-international-gp

(See #9 & #10 and #2 & #3)

matttheboatman

Grant, I looked at your referenced comparison and noticed that this one time you may have made an error.

The Hockenheim lap list shows...

The 991 GT3 (pdk) is #12th fastest time at 1:07.90
vs
The 991 R (manual) is #35th at 1.09.10

The PDK GT3 faster at this track. Of course, as you point out it's not apples to apples, and who knows what tires they are running?

I say PDK is substantially faster and you say only slightly faster.

But, we both agree PDK is faster.

I am willing to concede that it depends on the circuit.

frosty911

Please don't flame me...but I am pretty sure I remember reading that the the manual 7 speed transmission would lock out a gear you are trying to shift into if it would overrev the engine. For example downshifting from 4th to first instead of 4th to 3rd by error. I don't remember if it was the porsche seven speed manual or the corvette's 7 speed manual but I pretty positive I read that. So does anybody know if the 6 speed manual in the upcoming gt3.2 would have such a feature that would negate the fear of money shifthing?

GrantG

Hi Matt - I can understand how it looks that way, but #12 is actually the 991.2 GT3 (not 991.1). If you click on the link next to #12 where it says 991 GT3 it takes you to the car's page where it indicates Facelift (.2) version...

The tip-off is that it says 500hp next to the lap time (rather than 475hp for the .1). As I said in an earlier post, it's not fair to compare the R to the .2 due mostly to tires and a host of other upgrades. The relevant models are at #35 and #39 on the Hockenheim list.

GrantG

No, there is no lock-out safety feature. Fortunately, it's a wonderful shifter with very well defined gates.

DoninDen

Disclaimer: I have never driven a PDK and am not in the market for a GT3, in fact, I'm enjoying older slower 911s as a perfect fit for me. I can push them harder and feel like I'm going fast with out being in felony land...

A definite benefit of the PDK, as already mentioned, is its speed. But also, if the console can be managed successfully the relative ease in which a hummer may be received.

A concern about the the PDK, is technology will continue to improve and horsepower will continue increase. I drive an SC as a daily. I truly love driving the car because it is so basic, smooth and engaging. When the SC came out it was considered a fast car and it took a skilled driver to use it to its limits. I'm not saying I'm so super skilled, but I can push the limits much further in the SC than I could in my 997S and can in my 993TT.

My point is down the road (pun intended), as unlikely as it seems, the 991.2 GT3 will not be Porsche's bleeding edge car and the new PDK will be even better. The extra engagement of the manual may be significantly more important than extra performance of the PDK, unless the hummer issue is important. (Well of course it is important, but I mean THAT important, well yes it is THAT important, but if it is the deciding factor when buying the car)

While sac religious, I enjoy the 915 transmission, even with the occasional frustration and embarrassment associated with not doing it right, over the slick exact precision of the G50.

If Porsche moves all electric or semi electric, which will be more collectible? A full gas fired internal combustion engine monster with an equally retro manual or with an outdated PDK?

GrantG

I like the 915 better too and its cable clutch - much more mechanically satisfying and easily modulated than a hydraulic one. I've had 3 915's and one is a cost-no-object racing box with every WEVO upgrade, custom ratios, Guard LSD, etc built by Hayden, owner of WEVO. It's amazing how well a 915 can perform when given the full treatment.

Akunob

I'm in line for a Spring 2018 ED for my .2 GT3 and I spec'ed it with a PDK. Why? For my 6-7 track events/year (14-16 track days per year) I want to enjoy/experience the best my .2 GT3 has to offer, the way Porsche's engineers designed it. It's undeniably quicker than a similarly equipped MT, in short, the sum of the parts is simply greater! Had the chance to speak to the crew of an IMSA race team running two GT4 Clubsport MR and we discussed the PDK vs. MT. THE GT4 Clubposrt MR comes with a beefed up PDK-S transmission that they described as one of the best shifting transmissions around. The PDK is the superior transmission period.

It is telling that many opting for the MT are more focused on resale values and 'enjoying' their ride to the local Cars & Coffee. To each his/her own, I'm not knocking the MT as it has its merits but Porsche admits that it's a throwback to the nostalgic days of old. Preuninger conceded that it was developed for the 'faithful' who want to enjoy spirited Sunday drives. At the track, it's PDK, all day...and that's where I intend to enjoy my .2 GT3 the most. My $0.02...

AZFlat6

To the original question posed:

1. Daily driver in city traffic - PDK
2. Getting paid to turn the quickest lap time - PDK
3. Driver involvement at track - Manual
4. Weekend sports car experience - Manual
5. Respect - Manual
6. Future collectibility - Manual

Just remember, when the BMW SMG, Ferrari F1, Lambo E-gear, and Porsche Tiptronic were all released, everyone HAD to have them. Now, both resale value and desirability is better on a 6-speed manual car versus modified automatic in every single case. (And yes, automatic gearbox technology will continue to improve over the current gen PDK).

Many of my friends prefer PDK, and that's totally fine. To each their own, and it's their money. On a track, PDK really is awesome to drive, and you WILL cut a better time in a PDK car, without question. However, there isn't even an argument that can be made for driver involvement, required multi-tasking skill (and the subsequent reward), and future resale value for a manual transmission-equipped car.

spydersmiley

Absolutely on point: When I bought my 987 Spyder, I got a manual. According to tests, it goes from 0 to 100 in 5.1 seconds. With PDK, the same car is considerable faster to 100, I believe in 4.7s or so. Today, I could not care less about this academic difference - it's just a fun car to drive. However, what I can definitely tell is that manual Spyders are more sought after / higher priced than PDKs (at least here), also because the PDK technology used in the 987/997 generation is dated if compared to today's PDK.


Best
Tobias