jeff968

Mikey,

But, do you understand how the game will change once the car turns 25 years old? As an "exhibition" vehicle don't things get much easier?

quick968

OK sure, let's look at that. Short answer, nope. The CS is a 1995. That means, assuming they don't change the rules (a BIG assumption IMO) that it would be eligible for import in 2020. That's another 6 years! You may have the patience to wait 6 more years but I sure didn't. And it was 15-18 yrs when I owned it. That's a LOOOONG time to wait.

Even the "exhibition" status exemption you mentioned is VERY restrictive, by no means easy as you suggest. First, it has to be on NHTSA's list of vehicles eligible to be in that category. News flash, the CS aint on that list. If not on the list you then have to apply to get it on the list, guess how long that takes. Then assuming you can get it approved as exhibition, you are restricted to a max of 2500 miles per year, and NONE of it can be on public use roads where EPA regs are required to be complied with.

Per NHTSA rules
"12. Importing a vehicle for show or display.
Certain motor vehicles that are deemed to be of unusual historical or technological significance can be imported for purposes of show or display. Information on importing a motor vehicle for those purposes can be found on NHTSA’s website at http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import/ShowDisplay/. When a vehicle is imported for purposes of show or display, it cannot be driven in excess of 2,500 miles per year. As a general rule, a motor vehicle will not be determined eligible for importation for purposes of show or display if more than five hundred vehicles of the same model were produced, if a version of the vehicle was originally manufactured for sale in the U.S. and certified as complying with all applicable FMVSS, or if the vehicle has been determined eligible for importation based on its capability of being modified to comply with all applicable FMVSS."

The CS fails those yardsticks in several respects.

Bottom line, I went through all the steps back in the day, talked to all the people, the conversion shops, etc and it's just a never ending, truly mind numbing exercise in gubmint bureaucracy navigation. And it all costs money, and lot's of time. Life is too short. It's a CS, not a 959 or a GT1. It's a 968 with some crap removed and a CS badge on the back. We can MAKE a "true" CS for vastly less money out of a normal 968 and it'll be perfectly road legal. Heck you could make it even better, there are several weight loss threads here and on other boards; there are several out there under 2900 lbs which makes for some lively performance. It's obvious that the MAIN factor for the lust everyone has for this car is the color. It's a real phenomenon. And in person, it only gets worse. For whatever reason, Riviera Blue with black interior is just a stunning combo, it really has "presence" as Rich stated. I would be mobbed at every Texas track I ran it on, and Rich had the same reaction in Fla.

So take a white 968, strip the interior and do a color change. $5-7K max to do a truly thorough re-color. Slap on a CS badge, then "Just smile and wave boys, smile and wave."

Cheers
Mikey

jeff968

Good stuff, thanks, but do they look at each model year individually?

1993 would be the first year for the CS so that is 2018 which is that much closer.

If I read what you put down correctly, once the first person gets the CS on the exhibition list then everyone else who follows benefits?

As with most any car, most will want the "real" thing, I know I would.

You and I could debate the collectibility of the 968 but I see it currently as a collectible and only going up in status. As the PCA 968 register advocate, I have been contacted a few times by collectors looking to add a 968 to their car collections.

Jeff

quick968

True enough, 4 more years till the first true CS's are allowed to be imported. I just meant this Riv Blue CS is a 95 so it's 2020 for that one to be legal. How many CS's were produced by year? You would know better than all of us, did PCNA make those numbers avail? Of that number, how many are left? Seems like when they come up for sale on the UK and EU web pages, they fetch a pretty penny. Then you have to arrange shipping. Then Customs bond, etc. I'm certainly not saying it can't or shouldn't be done. Obviously not since I DID IT all those years ago. Believe me, I LOVED that car. I'm just pointing out how hard and expensive it was/is.

True again, though there are so many "tribute" cars out there now it's getting tough to tell real from tribute. Some of the articles in Excellence show the lengths some folks go to create some of the real Porsche icons, the 911R's, the IROC's, the RSR's etc. Even the 911 Club Sports. But the 968CS and Sport were made in reasonably large numbers, and there is precious little as far as race pedigree to look towards with the CS, unlike some of the 911 type icons. But a real 968CS will certainly always be more desirable than a "tribute" car, even if the tribute is identical, or even better, than the CS.

Oh no Jeff, I'm not debating the CS is collectable and desirable; on the contrary, I desired it enough to get it here. And I agree, it'll slowly appreciate over time. But like I said, in the grand scheme of significant Porsche's, it's kinda small potatoes. We here love it because we know what it is, and how underdemeciated it is as a rare combination of balance/performance/value that Porsche has yet to duplicate IMO. Look at the price of a Boxster Spyder fer pete sake! Or a Cayman R. Lots MORE money, for LESS equipment. The Spyder costs Porsche much less to build. Maybe they look back at the 968 CS and shake their bean counting heads as a missed opportunity.

Cheers
Mikey

jeff968

I was wondering about this statement:

"As a general rule, a motor vehicle will not be determined eligible for importation for purposes of show or display if more than five hundred vehicles of the same model were produced"

Is that per model year or the entire series run?

As for C/S production figures:

1993 - 856
1994 - 536
1995 - 531

Althought these numbers could be 60 more for each year depending on if porsche held the first 60 for internal use like they did the NA cars.

Strange thing about your old car on eBay. The seller has a VIN for a black North American 1995 968 coupe listed????


Jeff

quick968

That bogus VIN is because the real VIN, which starts with the usual WP0ZZZ for ROW cars is not accepted by ebay as a valid vin, so he had to make something up to place the ad.

The CS production numbers are rule busters either way you look at it, by single year or entire series, but to answer your question, it's by year. Perfect example, Land Rover imported the Defender 110 in 1993 only. They brought in just 500 examples, (sneaky right, LRNA knew EXACTLY what they were doing) plus another 15 for LRNA use. I've had two of these over the years. A decent D110 example now is pushing 6 digits in price. Hell, a 97' Defender 90 with 50 miles on it just sold on Ebay last week for $102,400. A staggering number for what is essentially a poorly built Jeep Wrangler. And that didn't meet reserve! At any rate, the Defender 110 is a huge draw for the grey market as there are 1000's in UK for comparative pennies. DOT/Customs are hip to this big time, and have been actually crushing some of these off model year D110's. You can check the NHTSA site, and the ONLY D110 you can bring in is from 1993, and you have to modify to match the NAS spec version EXACTLY. This means Safety Devices external roll cage,etc. HUGE money. The blokes in UK are wise to this, and the 93's fetch 3-5x what the other years bring used. It's a constant game of cat and mouse with the gubmint.

All that said, the 968CS, per your stats, appears to have been produced in numbers sufficient in each model year to pass the 500 example threshold, which I had assumed but didn't know. That makes it ineligible to be imported under the "exhibition" exemption because there are so many it's not considered rare enough to "exhibit". So that brings us right back to the 25yr rule being the only avenue left. So presumably in 2018, one could start the paper mill process to get a 93' CS brought in. I brought my CS in as a race car only, which is the only other allowable exemption. And they wanted to see log books.

You can't fight city hall. Well you can, but the gray hairs aren't worth it.

Mikey

Vilhuer

In general VIN's 0001 - 0060 were not made at all. 61 has been first VIN for each series for past 20 years. If Porsche made some protos with smaller VIN its very likely they can't be road registered at all due to not meeting requirements.

jeff968

Thanks! This is definately the case for the North American 968s but I couldn't say for sure about the ROW 968s. Good to know.

So, for 968 CS production you would subtract 60 from each of the model years to get the true number:

1993 - 856 - 60 = 796
1994 - 536 - 60 = 476
1995 - 531 - 60 = 471

Vilhuer

Based on german language 968 book I'd say CS VIN ends are:

1993 - 5061 to 5856
1994 - 5061 to 5524
1995 - 5061 to 5338

Another german language book (Austen's) gives even smaller upper limit of 5326 for '95 CS but his data seem to have several mistakes and this can be one more of those. With working access to PET online VIN search it should be possible to narrow it down manually.

PET lists these VIN's as Turbo S
'93 MY
WP0ZZZ96ZPS890061
WP0ZZZ96ZPS890062
WP0ZZZ96ZPS890063
WP0ZZZ96ZPS890064
WP0ZZZ96ZPS890065
WP0ZZZ96ZPS890066
WP0ZZZ96ZPS890067
WP0ZZZ96ZPS890068
WP0ZZZ96ZPS890069
WP0ZZZ96ZPS890070
WP0ZZZ96ZPS890071

'94 MY
WP0ZZZ96ZRS890001
WP0ZZZ96ZRS890061
WP0ZZZ96ZRS890062
WP0ZZZ96ZRS890063

Book source where CS numbers comes from says there were 9 '93 model and 8 '94 model made which do not sound right. I do not have working access to PET VIN search at the moment so I can't check '93 Turbo RS VIN's which should be in range WP0ZZZ96ZPS896001 to WP0ZZZ96ZPS896063. I think it means WP0ZZZ96ZPS896001 and WP0ZZZ96ZPS896061 to WP0ZZZ96ZPS896063 and total of 4 made.

jeff968

Erkka,
You are correct. i checked my photos and the one I saw was PS890070. I guess I remember it being the 10th. Interesting that they released VIN number 1 for model year 1994.

Jeff

Joska

I was at Hershey with the car. I took the car back with me to Germany and sold it here for reasonable money.

SoloRacer

I have friends who buy and sell a lot of Porsche's. What we are seeing is that a large number of vintage cars are going back to Europe. Most are being bought by brokers who then resell the car. Looks like the used market in Europe is strong and speculators are entering the game.

jeff968

They only made us 10 speed yellow 968 cabs for North America and a few years back #9 was sold and shipped back to Germany!!! Not nice!

MGW-Fla

Whaaaat!!!! Are they allowed to do that??!!! As the 968 Gate Keeper, I thought you could prevent that from happening Jeff? Wait.............That means at best there are now only 9 speed yellow 968 cabs here in the States making mine just a bit more rare. Ok, that could be a good thing!

RajDatta

Add to that a factory turbo S that went back to the motherland last yr. At this rate, I see many special color cars heading over to the other side of the pond.