968 DD eval (kinda long, and you won't like it)
05-23-2013, 05:21 PM
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968 DD eval (kinda long, and you won't like it)
I've had my 968 for about a year now, and for those that don't recall, I bought a rolling mess, and put it back together with bone stock stuff, and put it on the road. For the past two months I've been using it as a DD, and this is my report on that function of the car. The comparisons are basically to most people's idea of a DD, like a sporty 4-5YO Mustang, or a mid-range Kia coupe. Here's what I've come up with ratings are 1-10 with 10 being perfect:
Ergonomics:
1. Overall, the 968 just can't away from it's 924 roots. There have been improvements by dribs and drabs but the basic layout of the cockpit and the functions are hold overs from the 85.5 upgrade of the 944. The A pillars can't move, the steering location, and the pedals, shifter, and all the basics are leftover from the heyday of the 924. Sure, the controls are a little nicer in the 968, and the seats are very good, but the general ergonomics is not up to par with it's contemporary cousins. Several good points were; shifter and seat. I rate them high. Low points were; everything else is marginal. The worst is probably no tilt/telescope of the wheel so I can have a bit more room in there. Also, the idea that we needed a 2+2 seating makes the door hinge point kinda tough to handle at my age. They should have just killed the rear seats, moved the front seats back some, pulled the pedal box back a bit, and given the car tilt/telescope for best effect.
Rating: 3
Maintenance:
Make no mistake, most Porsches are maint hogs, and the 968 is no different. Sure, you have the cool crest, and yes you get somewhat better performance(see below) but for the most part, the maint on a 968 is not suitable for a DD. Now, my situation may be a bit different than most, because I bought a fixer, but even considering that, the belt changes come around every 3 years at 15k annual miles, and that includes a fair amount of extra stuff with the balance shaft, rollers, and all. Add to that the electrical gremlins that the marque seems to be famous for, and it becomes a car that you need to spend 3-5 hours per month just on generic hunting and fixing of little issues. Since I've been DD, my brake reservoir sensor has gone out, the airbag has had to be reset, and don't get me started on the cruise and the damn anti-theft. Jeezalou! what a mess. The basic engine, trans, brakes are semi-bulletproof without much compromise, but everything around those big ticket items seems to need attention just far too often. Now, I've adjusted the alt belt to the factory setting, and it squeals when I start the car with the AC on. I know it's set perfectly according to the book, and the belt is in fine shape, but I have to go investigate why it squeals and what to do about it.
Rating: 4
Performance:
Of course, this is where the car shines. I'm in love with the power, cornering, stopping and general attack mode that the 968 can deliver. If I had a challenging commute on long, high speed roads this would sway me to put up with the rest of the poor ratings, but lets face it, very few people will be getting out on the Autobahn and noodling along at ~100MPH. Most of us are going to be commuting and driving around town between 35-70MPH, and the 968 is overkill for that mission. I had a Flex behind me yesterday when I was cut off by a gravel truck and I had to panic slow. The Flex was almost in my trunk before he chose to drive into the weeds to the right. The brakes on this car are out of this world. The engine pulls from 1200 in almost any gear(too many gears I say), and when the revs get about 4000, you better have lots of air in front of you, cause the scenery is going by at a rapid pace.
I had a chance to do a few 110MPH runs on long good road, and I felt like the car was made for that. Solid, road-hugging, plenty of pedal left, no brake worries, and the chassis was tight and quiet. Road noise was a little high, but at 110MPH, not disturbingly so.
Rating: 8.5
Economy:
Well, lets make this short. It sucks donkey *****. I have my tires at 38PSI cold, the car is running on 28Lb injectors rather than the stock 31, I drive it conservatively, and coast when I can. I'm actually doing better than book values from back in 92, and I'm using an Ethanol laced fuel! So, I'm about as good as it's gonna get, and I'm still only getting an average of 26.7MPG per tank. On a long run from CO I got 28.7 with a steady 70MPH and no AC use for most of the tank. Reality is that most people are going to be in the mid-20s or lower, and it needs premium although I've run mid-grade with no issues so far.
Rating: 2
Misc:
Trunk space is good for a DD but not great. I fit my skis in it, and other crap, and with the seat backs folded it's fine for hauling crap, but it's no hot-hatch that can swallow volumes of crap at a time. Luckily, I don't usually need to carry huge volumes of crap so That's fine. Gadgetry was overloaded on these cars.
No one should mess with the roof removal unless they are a rocket scientist, and then they need to read and follow all label directions. I've got a big 'NO' label on my roof switch, and won't dare mess with it again.
ABS is kind of a requirement and it works fine, but the ABS controller has some wrinkles that need to be ironed. I've had one of three and two of three wheels go into ABS shudder and it's a bit weird feeling. Some drivers might let off the brakes when they feel it, and it's just doing it's job, although in a rough manner.
Visibility is fine, but that huge hatchback collects and focus's the sun like you are an ant under a 8YO kid with his glasses off, and trying to fry you. Some kind of louver/shade/tint is a requirement and I'm no fan of tinting windows due to the night visibility problems.
Driving impression. Once you get over the cool factor that you are actually using a +20YO car to get around the driving becomes a bit pedestrian. It's not a 966/977/Cayman, it's not a brutish 928 that will sweep lesser cars from the street, it's not a 914 that people will run goggle-eyed from on the highway, it's just a highway cruiser with the Porsche crest, and nice rims and tires. I've gotten several compliments after my paintwork was completed, and I've given a few rides with good results but the poor 968 can't escape it's 924/944 roots, despite the body hip and shoulder fix, and the lights, bumpers, and wing. All nice things, and a good improvement, but they do not a 996 make.
Rating: 6
Overall DD rating: 4.75
I would not recommend anyone who is not a DIY kind of person to use the 968. For similar money, around $12k for a well sorted car one can get a 2007/8 Mustang with a V6, or maybe a sporty Kia, maybe a 6YO Lexus. All of which get better mileage, better safety, and decent ride and use reg gas.
If one has time to spend in the garage regularly, or has a decent indie mech and would like to do some autocross or a bit of track action It's fine. It is not a good fit for the DD job, and I'll be putting mine up for weekend use as soon as I buy my kid a new car and I get her Golf back.
YMMV
Ergonomics:
1. Overall, the 968 just can't away from it's 924 roots. There have been improvements by dribs and drabs but the basic layout of the cockpit and the functions are hold overs from the 85.5 upgrade of the 944. The A pillars can't move, the steering location, and the pedals, shifter, and all the basics are leftover from the heyday of the 924. Sure, the controls are a little nicer in the 968, and the seats are very good, but the general ergonomics is not up to par with it's contemporary cousins. Several good points were; shifter and seat. I rate them high. Low points were; everything else is marginal. The worst is probably no tilt/telescope of the wheel so I can have a bit more room in there. Also, the idea that we needed a 2+2 seating makes the door hinge point kinda tough to handle at my age. They should have just killed the rear seats, moved the front seats back some, pulled the pedal box back a bit, and given the car tilt/telescope for best effect.
Rating: 3
Maintenance:
Make no mistake, most Porsches are maint hogs, and the 968 is no different. Sure, you have the cool crest, and yes you get somewhat better performance(see below) but for the most part, the maint on a 968 is not suitable for a DD. Now, my situation may be a bit different than most, because I bought a fixer, but even considering that, the belt changes come around every 3 years at 15k annual miles, and that includes a fair amount of extra stuff with the balance shaft, rollers, and all. Add to that the electrical gremlins that the marque seems to be famous for, and it becomes a car that you need to spend 3-5 hours per month just on generic hunting and fixing of little issues. Since I've been DD, my brake reservoir sensor has gone out, the airbag has had to be reset, and don't get me started on the cruise and the damn anti-theft. Jeezalou! what a mess. The basic engine, trans, brakes are semi-bulletproof without much compromise, but everything around those big ticket items seems to need attention just far too often. Now, I've adjusted the alt belt to the factory setting, and it squeals when I start the car with the AC on. I know it's set perfectly according to the book, and the belt is in fine shape, but I have to go investigate why it squeals and what to do about it.
Rating: 4
Performance:
Of course, this is where the car shines. I'm in love with the power, cornering, stopping and general attack mode that the 968 can deliver. If I had a challenging commute on long, high speed roads this would sway me to put up with the rest of the poor ratings, but lets face it, very few people will be getting out on the Autobahn and noodling along at ~100MPH. Most of us are going to be commuting and driving around town between 35-70MPH, and the 968 is overkill for that mission. I had a Flex behind me yesterday when I was cut off by a gravel truck and I had to panic slow. The Flex was almost in my trunk before he chose to drive into the weeds to the right. The brakes on this car are out of this world. The engine pulls from 1200 in almost any gear(too many gears I say), and when the revs get about 4000, you better have lots of air in front of you, cause the scenery is going by at a rapid pace.
I had a chance to do a few 110MPH runs on long good road, and I felt like the car was made for that. Solid, road-hugging, plenty of pedal left, no brake worries, and the chassis was tight and quiet. Road noise was a little high, but at 110MPH, not disturbingly so.
Rating: 8.5
Economy:
Well, lets make this short. It sucks donkey *****. I have my tires at 38PSI cold, the car is running on 28Lb injectors rather than the stock 31, I drive it conservatively, and coast when I can. I'm actually doing better than book values from back in 92, and I'm using an Ethanol laced fuel! So, I'm about as good as it's gonna get, and I'm still only getting an average of 26.7MPG per tank. On a long run from CO I got 28.7 with a steady 70MPH and no AC use for most of the tank. Reality is that most people are going to be in the mid-20s or lower, and it needs premium although I've run mid-grade with no issues so far.
Rating: 2
Misc:
Trunk space is good for a DD but not great. I fit my skis in it, and other crap, and with the seat backs folded it's fine for hauling crap, but it's no hot-hatch that can swallow volumes of crap at a time. Luckily, I don't usually need to carry huge volumes of crap so That's fine. Gadgetry was overloaded on these cars.
No one should mess with the roof removal unless they are a rocket scientist, and then they need to read and follow all label directions. I've got a big 'NO' label on my roof switch, and won't dare mess with it again.
ABS is kind of a requirement and it works fine, but the ABS controller has some wrinkles that need to be ironed. I've had one of three and two of three wheels go into ABS shudder and it's a bit weird feeling. Some drivers might let off the brakes when they feel it, and it's just doing it's job, although in a rough manner.
Visibility is fine, but that huge hatchback collects and focus's the sun like you are an ant under a 8YO kid with his glasses off, and trying to fry you. Some kind of louver/shade/tint is a requirement and I'm no fan of tinting windows due to the night visibility problems.
Driving impression. Once you get over the cool factor that you are actually using a +20YO car to get around the driving becomes a bit pedestrian. It's not a 966/977/Cayman, it's not a brutish 928 that will sweep lesser cars from the street, it's not a 914 that people will run goggle-eyed from on the highway, it's just a highway cruiser with the Porsche crest, and nice rims and tires. I've gotten several compliments after my paintwork was completed, and I've given a few rides with good results but the poor 968 can't escape it's 924/944 roots, despite the body hip and shoulder fix, and the lights, bumpers, and wing. All nice things, and a good improvement, but they do not a 996 make.
Rating: 6
Overall DD rating: 4.75
I would not recommend anyone who is not a DIY kind of person to use the 968. For similar money, around $12k for a well sorted car one can get a 2007/8 Mustang with a V6, or maybe a sporty Kia, maybe a 6YO Lexus. All of which get better mileage, better safety, and decent ride and use reg gas.
If one has time to spend in the garage regularly, or has a decent indie mech and would like to do some autocross or a bit of track action It's fine. It is not a good fit for the DD job, and I'll be putting mine up for weekend use as soon as I buy my kid a new car and I get her Golf back.
YMMV
05-23-2013, 07:34 PM
#2
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Thanks for taking time to write this up and for resurrecting a 968 - kudos to you. However, I disagree with the basis and categories where you've chosen to focus in this review because the 968 is an enthusiast's car, not a daily driver for a daily driver's sake. To compare a 968 with an equally-priced, over-produced, entirely unexciting to drive ****box like Mustang V6 / Kia / Lexus misses the point of the 968 entirely. If you ask an enthusiast like me, the 968 is perfect when driven up to 5k miles per year filled to the brim with luggage for long road trips, entirely stripped out and setup at autocross and track days, on weekends with amazing weather hauling a bike rack on top, at night in rain or snow etc with good lighting and safety - it can do ANYTHING you dream of without much effort! What is that worth? If I had to drive mine daily then the fun and rarity of the car adds an entirely new dimension to your perspective that would handily beat the **** out of all competitors in this price range or $20k over, all things considered. 
When you add FUN and RARITY to mid-20's MPG, far more hauling capacity than you need in all but EXTREME circumstances, cheap to insure, cheap to purchase, relatively easy to DIY compared to extensively digital & non-modular modern sports cars, very reliable once sorted mechanically, advanced technology for its day aka ability to stand the test of time and downright SEXY styling then the 968 is a badass car! What is 'je ne sais quoi' worth? The 968 has it but most other cars on the road don't.
When you add FUN and RARITY to mid-20's MPG, far more hauling capacity than you need in all but EXTREME circumstances, cheap to insure, cheap to purchase, relatively easy to DIY compared to extensively digital & non-modular modern sports cars, very reliable once sorted mechanically, advanced technology for its day aka ability to stand the test of time and downright SEXY styling then the 968 is a badass car! What is 'je ne sais quoi' worth? The 968 has it but most other cars on the road don't.
05-23-2013, 07:37 PM
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Not saying everything you said is wrong but I think it all depends on your point of reference. I use mine as a DD, but I'm being a little disingenuous there as I don't have to drive every day.
I think you hit the nail towards the bottom - these cars are 20 years old - 'road testing' them against more modern cars is perhaps a touch unfair? In the UK for the price I paid for mine I could be driving around in a Ford Mondeo... BORING! Which petrolhead wants to do that
One thing - I was told not to let Ethanol anywhere near my car - might bear some investigating?
Obviously these cars aren't for everyone. Personally I love mine. I've had faster more accomplished motors but the 968 is a pretty rare, cool beast in my eyes.
Looks like someone was quicker on the keyboard. What he said ^
I think you hit the nail towards the bottom - these cars are 20 years old - 'road testing' them against more modern cars is perhaps a touch unfair? In the UK for the price I paid for mine I could be driving around in a Ford Mondeo... BORING! Which petrolhead wants to do that
One thing - I was told not to let Ethanol anywhere near my car - might bear some investigating?
Obviously these cars aren't for everyone. Personally I love mine. I've had faster more accomplished motors but the 968 is a pretty rare, cool beast in my eyes.
Looks like someone was quicker on the keyboard. What he said ^
Last edited by Deano968; 05-23-2013 at 07:38 PM. Reason: Beaten to it...
05-23-2013, 07:44 PM
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Sounds pretty reasonable to me. I think it's all down to what you want. It shouldn't be a surprise that a mid-90s sports car isn't a new econobox.
I DD mine and actually love it for such duties but my primary criteria is that it not be boring (first car after commuting on motorcycles exclusively for over a decade). An '07ish mustang is pretty miserable to drive imho (though I found the 2012 fairly nice) and the only sorta comparable kia is a Hyundai Genesis Coupe and you'll pay a lot more for one. Maybe it's just my body, but I found the 968's ergonomics just about perfect. Nearer so than anything else sporty I've driven.
Maint. requirements seem only a little more intensive than most anything of similar age/vintage. Certainly higher than a new hyundai but probably not higher than a '94 300zx or most period sportscars.
Economy, yep, mileage is pretty poor compared to new economy cars, but a previous gen GS300 or mustang will be just as poor and current gens of both are still expensive (and totally different driving experiences). I get 22-25mpg in the 968 and got 25-27 in a rental v6 2012 mustang.
FWIW the AC belt has minimal wrap and is somewhat prone to squealing. If mine is even the slightest bit loose it'll squeal but when tightened properly it doesn't. There are aftermarket solutions that increase belt wrap and should fix that problem.
I DD mine and actually love it for such duties but my primary criteria is that it not be boring (first car after commuting on motorcycles exclusively for over a decade). An '07ish mustang is pretty miserable to drive imho (though I found the 2012 fairly nice) and the only sorta comparable kia is a Hyundai Genesis Coupe and you'll pay a lot more for one. Maybe it's just my body, but I found the 968's ergonomics just about perfect. Nearer so than anything else sporty I've driven.
Maint. requirements seem only a little more intensive than most anything of similar age/vintage. Certainly higher than a new hyundai but probably not higher than a '94 300zx or most period sportscars.
Economy, yep, mileage is pretty poor compared to new economy cars, but a previous gen GS300 or mustang will be just as poor and current gens of both are still expensive (and totally different driving experiences). I get 22-25mpg in the 968 and got 25-27 in a rental v6 2012 mustang.
FWIW the AC belt has minimal wrap and is somewhat prone to squealing. If mine is even the slightest bit loose it'll squeal but when tightened properly it doesn't. There are aftermarket solutions that increase belt wrap and should fix that problem.
05-23-2013, 07:47 PM
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The 968 is an enthusiasts car and does not bear well in comparison to more modern ****boxes. However, back when I bought it, I asked the collected wisdom of the board if it would be suitable. I got almost universal approval to use it as such, with some pointed caveats. I just wanted to have my cake and eat it too!
I could live with the mx as I do my own, and I could live with some of the ergo stuff, but put it all together and it is back to what you say - an enthusiasts car, that may be pressed into service as a DD, but does not shine as such. Frankly, I was hoping for a better showing but it is what it is. I still like the heck out of it, just as a cruiser, and not to go from point A to B. for that, I'll defer to the ****box.
05-23-2013, 07:49 PM
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Ectually, I think we are in violent agreement.
The 968 is an enthusiasts car and does not bear well in comparison to more modern ****boxes. However, back when I bought it, I asked the collected wisdom of the board if it would be suitable. I got almost universal approval to use it as such, with some pointed caveats. I just wanted to have my cake and eat it too!
The 968 is an enthusiasts car and does not bear well in comparison to more modern ****boxes. However, back when I bought it, I asked the collected wisdom of the board if it would be suitable. I got almost universal approval to use it as such, with some pointed caveats. I just wanted to have my cake and eat it too!
I also want to have my cake and eat it too which is why I haven't found a better car that does EVERYTHING than the 968. I can't get away from them, having had 4 now since 2001. 
05-23-2013, 07:53 PM
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Once I'm in the thing, and my hand is falling to the shifter, and my foot is on the go pedal it's not bad at all. But, you have to admit that the A pillar is Right There, and the door hinge point is not made for tall or wide people. As I mentioned, if I were designing the follow-on to the 951/944 in 1990, I would toss that miserable excrement for a back seat in the dust bin, move the seat rails back about 4", offer a 'parcel/hat shelf' back there, and move the pedal box back a bit, then extend the column, or use a tilt/telescope like the 928. Even my 1983 Ferrari Mondial has tilt and telescope and it has 2+2 seating as well, it's pretty raw.
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05-23-2013, 07:57 PM
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Where this car would be perfect is where it was born. I had the good fortune of living in N Germany back in the 70s and all I had was a damn Karmin Ghia with a 1600DP engine. My GF was living in Stuttgart and the joy I could have had with the 968 back then! I salivate to get the 968 out on the autobahn around 90-110MPH in the left lane with my lights flicking the prols back into the right lane, and being chased around by big Merc sedans. That is 968 driving. But alas, even here in TX where the roads are big, and the speeds are pretty tasty, it still is overkill.
Do love the brakes though. I think that is the best part of the whole car.
Do love the brakes though. I think that is the best part of the whole car.
05-23-2013, 08:33 PM
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Sounds good. I'm not particularly tall or wide so am probably unaffected by the A pillar location (had never noticed it being unusually located actually).
The clubsport model had the rear seats deleted to save cost and weight. I find them sorta silly, can't imagine someone riding back there, but I'm not sure I'd want the driver's seat further back unless you moved the dash and shifter, etc., all back in equal amounts. Everything just falls into place nicely for me. I generally much prefer tilt/tele columns, but happily on the 968 I've no desire to move the wheel.
I'm also 30 so probably tolerate the less luxurious aspects better now than I will in 20yrs. Another cool car that's got some character and is amazingly comfy and smooth is the R129 merc SL series. I had a chance to drive a pristine 20k mile SL600 recently and quite liked it. It doesn't have the light flickable feel of the 968 but does have a nice feel and would eat up highway miles like no other.
The clubsport model had the rear seats deleted to save cost and weight. I find them sorta silly, can't imagine someone riding back there, but I'm not sure I'd want the driver's seat further back unless you moved the dash and shifter, etc., all back in equal amounts. Everything just falls into place nicely for me. I generally much prefer tilt/tele columns, but happily on the 968 I've no desire to move the wheel.
I'm also 30 so probably tolerate the less luxurious aspects better now than I will in 20yrs. Another cool car that's got some character and is amazingly comfy and smooth is the R129 merc SL series. I had a chance to drive a pristine 20k mile SL600 recently and quite liked it. It doesn't have the light flickable feel of the 968 but does have a nice feel and would eat up highway miles like no other.
05-24-2013, 03:13 PM
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Very honest and candid feedback and I think your overall driving impression hit the nail on the head. IMO no one should be using a 20+ y/o car as a DD unless it's a Honda or Toyota.
05-24-2013, 07:35 PM
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Doc
If you find the 968 uncomfortable, don't EVER consider an aircooled 911. I came across from a 964 to my 968 and the 968 is like a limo in comparison...
Rob
If you find the 968 uncomfortable, don't EVER consider an aircooled 911. I came across from a 964 to my 968 and the 968 is like a limo in comparison...
Rob
05-25-2013, 12:00 PM
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My personal experience is, you can drive them daily once they are fully sorted. Are they as comfortable as some of the newer cars, of course not! But they have a level of pureness that is missing in today's cars. They are raw, perform well for a 20yr old car.
I have found them to be quite reliable once they are sorted. The path you took is the most painful path to own a 968. You have too much blood and sweat in that car and I could you see being somewhat disappointed.
Raj
I have found them to be quite reliable once they are sorted. The path you took is the most painful path to own a 968. You have too much blood and sweat in that car and I could you see being somewhat disappointed.
Raj
05-26-2013, 05:50 PM
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No, not disappointed at all. I like the car, and I really enjoy getting in it after driving the Durango, or the Focus. This is JUST about using as a DD. I expect a DD to get me from point A to B in a min amount of fuss at a low cost, and low stress, and low mx. Nothing wrong with my car, just that it won't do for a DD.
I consider a good DD as something I could toss the keys to my daughter and she could drive it no muss no fuss every day for months with good econ. The 968 is a lot of things, but it is not like that.
I consider a good DD as something I could toss the keys to my daughter and she could drive it no muss no fuss every day for months with good econ. The 968 is a lot of things, but it is not like that.
