frogisland

That is a very good offer you have made re the rolling road Raj, i would be interested in the results, although i will at some point get around to live mapping mine and so would not have a need for one.

Raj, hope you are well, i don't follow forums too closely now since the 968UK debacle, but wish you well in your quest with your '68. (not had much chance to drive mine the last couple of months - been preoccupied with racing....a 968)

JP

Damian in NJ

Absolutely hilarious-not long after the Deutsch Nine announcement here this pops up over at the junior forum. Guess when you have a forum that is 2/3 owned by people 'creating' and reselling 968 parts you're bound to have a partisan attitude about anything that may outperform your products.



968 Forums Lunatic


Group: Admin
Posts: 7,232
Joined: 31-January 05
From: los angeles
Member No.: 2



in today's performance market, many people are trying to develop products that make power for cars - some of them work - some don't - some show gains on charts, but do nothing in reality - some don't show gains on charts, but do in reality - how is anybody supposed to sift through all of the hype and promises, see real data, and make an educated decision?

well, the first thing is to understand how the testing works

dynos are the most commonly used tools for showing performance gains - they measure the force applied to the roller, and calculate that to horsepower and torque - but, all dynos are not created equal

some apply an approximation of load to the equation - this varies from dyno to dyno, based on model, roller size, brake motor, etc - most can calculate forward to the flywheel, but they all do it differently

the tolerance of most high quality dynos is =/- 1% - on our engines that can mean every bit of 2hp, or more

you also have to consider the ambient conditions - these can change dramatically, and affect the results by as much as 10% - things like the temperature of the transaxle can make huge differences - intake temp, heat soak, sensor location, wheel size, wheel weight, tire size, tire weight, tire pressure, humidity, and strap tension, all play large roles too

octane is a HUGE factor in results - testing on 91 versus 93 will result in a 2% change all by itself

so, how do you know if a test is accurate, or worth the paper it's printed on? the short answer is, usually you don't

tests are worthless if they don't do comparisons on the same dyno, on the same day, on the same car - the conditions must be identical to provide accurate results - calculations for conditions are only approximations, and are limited in accuracy to the tolerances of the devices used

this is especially true when trying to compare things like chips - the differences between them is small enough that in order to get any real data, you have to take a lot of steps to insure a fair test - you have to carefully measure all of the temperatures and such, as well as the times between runs, and take care to insure that the runs are equal

so, ignore any claim by any manufacturer that is not supported by before and after tests, showing the conditions of the tests to be the same

also ignore the peak numbers, and focus on the area below the curve - that is a better real world indicator of what you will see - peaks are great for advertising, but pretty much useless for real world driving - peaks are generally outside the area that most people drive - mid range gains are the most useful for most drivers - peaks may come into play on race cars though, where every little bit helps, and a lot of time is spent in the upper rev range

ignore the final numbers too, and look only at the increase percentages - as an example, a chip that makes 20hp on a car taking it from 240 to 260 fwhp is actually making less power than a chip that makes 15hp on a car taking it from 187 to 202 fwhp

it can be done, but this stuff takes a lot of time and money - it pretty much takes all day to compare 2 chips, and do it well - you cannot do it in an hour with 3 runs - anybody who tells you otherwise has an agenda, or is trying to sell you something

be careful -p.t. barnum said it best - "a sucker born every minute" - ignore the hype - check with your friends or other people using something - there are a lot of good products out there - in the end though, you may well end up trying things yourself to see what works for you, and trusting manufacturers you know

stolarzj

I don't see any bashing in there at all, just stating how results can vary on a Dyno. It's all about helping fellow 968 owners out and this does that by describing the dyno process and how to read the dyno charts. He mentions no products in there at all so it's as neutral a statement you can make. I understand your need for controversy but there is no need for that in the forums, we are here for our cars not others attitudes.

And your comment about "junior forum" that just states it all right there, we know what your issue is, and it's not the with the content that is stated. By the way, you want to be carefully about copying content off of other forums and posting it in others, forum content is copyrighted.

Damian in NJ

The timing of the post comes on the heel of Deutsch's offering-no coincedence. And they've had a picture of my car in their gallery since the site went up, so I'm not worrying about copying a post.

SpeedBump

????? I'm confused Damian, is there something wrong with what was stated. I did not see the posting over there but thanks for sharing.
I look forward to Raj's testing results

stolarzj

Thanks for pointing that out, it was a carry over from the previous management, seeing as who posted that. We took care of that issue for you.

If anyone else finds a photo that they took themselves and didn't post there is a button in the photo display to report the photo and the management will promptly take care of it.

PorscheDude1

Geez, What a tool.
You just dont get it, and probably never will.

And if RSB products are so inferior, why do certain individuals try to get there products by other means?

I hope there is more power to be found in this new offering.

But how can people jump on the band wagon with no data?

Damian in NJ

You've got an open invitation when Raj does his dyno tests-as he has said, let's see if the upgrade works. When did I say RSB stuff is inferior? I don't think I've ever seen any of their products in person. Having a reseller/vendor and subvendor owning a website just casts a shadow over every product endorsement by certain individuals, when you know where the money ends up.

I hope you're not inferring I am a 'certain individual' looking to buy products 'through other means'-I have been looking at 968 headers from the same manufacturer who sells to RSB, is that supposed to count?

968workaholic

The 968 header wouldn't exist if RSB didn't fund the devlopement and testing of the configuration. The post is more informational about the process of testing mods, rather than one is better than the other. Damian, sounds to me like you are trying to stir up a bit of trouble, but it doesn't sound like it is working.

stolarzj

[QUOTE=Damian in NJ;5469196] Having a reseller/vendor and subvendor owning a website just casts a shadow over every product endorsement by certain individuals, when you know where the money ends up.
[QUOTE]

Those of us that don't use two head coins are able to see a alternate view on the other side of that coin. I see a vendor that has devoted a lot time, effort and money in the further development of the 968. I don't know of another vendor that has devoted as much time to the 968 as RSBarn has. That vendor then saw the top resource for all things 968 in trouble of going away when the original owner decided to call it quits and then decided to financially support the two enthusiasts that decided to take over the Admin functions of that 968 resource. He ought to be praised and thanked for his financial contributions to keep such a great resource for the 968 online, and not bashed.

I'm really not interested in keeping this thread going, I think everyone can make there own decisions and the amount of traffic and amount of new registrations on the 968forums site has shown that. Your attitude and personal agendas against certain people clearly shines threw and this is no place for that. As I have said we are all here for our 968's, period.

I welcome new parts for the 968, such as this chip and look forward to see the dyno charts on it. Now that some of the people that are not familiar with the dyno process and how to read those charts are further educated (thanks to you with your copy of that post from the other forum) I think people will be able to make a educated decision now.

So Thank You Damian, I think that was a worth while post that everyone over here should read for their further education on the Dyno process..

Damian in NJ

Hey, if you like having the fox run the hen house, I won't stop you. But if you can't see a conflict of interest staring you in the face, then no amount of me bringing that to your attention will do much. What if the Deutsch chip turns out to be 'better' than any other chip tested-do you think it'll get the endorsement of the forums? I doubt it. Raj and the dyno shop could be ISO certified and they'll try and rip the test results to shreds. And would that be serving the 968 community? Nope.

Oh, and it's 'through' not clearly shines threw. Your buddy who can't be bothered to use the shift key had a funny rant about grammar mistakes as I recall-better watch yourself!

And I was reading about the Stahl header in 2004 in the NNJR PCA forums . . .

PorscheDude1

Then why do you even bother visiting a place you have such a distaste for?

Beni, Best of luck, if the results are truly an improvement I Will gladly stand in line for one.

Damian in NJ

Since I've got the top poster on 'ignore' I can sometimes get decent content out of the site-someone sent me the dyno thread in an email.

RajDatta

Just so that everyone is clear, I was planning to do this anyway for my Promax chip. Deutch Nine came along with a chip and I felt it made sense it test it as well. I also offered the testing to any other chips that people might want to test.
For me it was always Promax since I liked the chip in my previous car. A new product came along that might be worth testing, so I decided to do it to help everyone.
If people have concerns or issues, either put up or shut up. I will post the day of testing and everyone who is interested, is welcome to join me and bring the chip of their choice.
Raj

PorscheDude1

Very interesting:
You have him on ignore and do not like what he has to say, but have people send you emails of his posts.

Then post "your findings" here and bash him? He is not even here to defend him self.
I guess that's the way you like it?
Why would you share the copy righted post, from another forum, of an individual who has been banned from this site.
None of which has to do with Beni's offering.

Very strange....

IMHO, you continue to show what a tool you really are, week in and week out.