Oil Talk Time
04-09-2007, 08:29 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Columbia, MD
Posts: 1,180
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oil Talk Time
Well like most of you I just recently changed my winter oil and filter to get the moisture out. I was on the local Porsche talk chat site and came across something interesting. I would like to hear what Stephen the Porsche Doc and Kevin the Turbo Guru have to say about it.
Guys,
Since the Porsches have flat tappet cams, this article is important. The article is from the Feb issue of Octagon (the MG owner's club magazine).
Upkeep and Performance Hints
Motor Oils Are Not What They Used to Be
by Keith Ausell
About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc-diallkyl-dithiophosphate (zDDP) in the oils supplied with API approval that could affect sliding and high pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The reduction of these chemicals in supplied oil was based on the fact that zinc, manganese and/or phosphates reduce the effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere.
A month or so ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club bring a totally failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had only 900 miles on them!! I immediately contacted the camshaft re-grinder and asked how this could happen. They were well aware of this problem as they were starting to have many failures of this type. In the past, the lack of a molybdenum disulfide camshaft assembly lubricant was about the only thing that could create this type of problem. My customer has assembled many engines and had lubricated the camshaft properly. This got me on the phone to Delta Camshaft, one of our major suppliers. Then the bad news came out: It’s today’s "modern" API (American Petroleum Industry) approved oils that are killing our engines.
Next call: To a racing oil manufacturer that we use for the race cars (Redline). Their response: "We are well aware of the problem and we still use the correct amounts of those additives in our products". They continued to tell me they are not producing API approved oils so they don’t have to test and comply. Their oils were NOT the "new, improved and approved" ones that destroy flat tappet engines! "We just build the best lubricants possible". Sounds stupid, doesn’t it, New-Approved but inferior products, but it seems to be true for our cars.
To top this off our representative from a major supplier of performance and street engine parts (EPWI) stopped by to "warn us" of the problem of the NEW oils on flat tappet engines. This was a call that the representative was making only because of this problem to warn their engine builders! "The reduction of the zinc, manganese and phosphates are causing very early destruction of cams and followers". They are recommending that, for now at least. There must be a proper oil additive put in the first oil used on new engines, beyond the liberal use of molydisulfide assembly lube. They have been told that the first oil is the time the additives are needed but remain skeptical that the first change is all that is needed by their statement: Use diesel rated oils that are usually available at auto stores and truck stops.
Next phone call was to a retired engineer from Clevite, a major bearing and component manufacturer. First surprise was that he restored older British Motor bikes. The second surprise was that he was "VERY-aware of this problem because many of the old bikes had rectangular tappets that couldn’t rotate and are having a very large problem with the new oils. He has written an article for the British Bike community that verify all the "bad news" we have been finding.
Comp Cams put out "#225 Tech Bulletin: Flat Tappet Camshafts". They have both an assembly lube and an oil additive. The telling sentence in the bulletin was "While this additive was originally developed specifically for break-in protection subsequent testing has proven the durability benefits of its long term use. This special blend of additives promotes proper break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter failure by replacing some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been required to remove from their "shelf oil ".
Next question: Now what do we do? From the camshaft re-grinders (DeltaCam) "Use oils rated for diesel use". Delco (Standard Oil product) was named. About the same price as other quality petroleum based oils. They are not API formulated and have the zinc dithiophosphate we need in weights we are familiar with. From the camshaft manufacturer (Crane): "use our additive" for the first 500 miles. From General Motors (Chevrolet): add EOS, their oil fortifier to your oil, it’s only about $14.00 for each oil change for an 8 ounce can. (This problem seems to be something GM has known about for some time!)
From Redline Oil: Use our street formulated synthetics. They have what we need! From Castrol: We are beginning to see a pattern emerging on older cars. It may he advantageous to use a non-approved lubricant, such as oils that are Diesel rated, 4 Cycle Motorcycle oils and other specified diesel oils.
Last question: So what are we at Foreign Parts Positively going to do? After much research we are switching to Redline Street rated oils and stocking the Castrol Products that are diesel rated. This is a difficult decision as we have been a dealer and great believer in all Castrol Products for over 40 years. We have been using Castro! Syntech oil in new engines for about 3 years so the cost difference is minimal on new engines. The actual cost in operation is also less as the additive package in Redline makes a 1-year or up to 18,000 mile change recommended!
Yes it is a long change interval but with lowered sulfur levels and the elimination of lead and many other chemicals in the fuels there are less contaminants in our oil from the fuel which is the major contributor to oil degradation. We will continue to offer the Castrol products but will now only stock the suggested diesel oils that they produce.
Too many things are starting to show up on this subject and it has cost us money and time. Be aware that "New and Improved"’, or even products we have been using for many years destroys our cars as it isn’t the same stuff we were getting even a year ago.
If you have any additional input let us know. We need to let every flat tappet engine owner. i.e.: every British Car owner know that things are changing and we MUST meet the challenge.
Keith Ansell - President Foreign Parts Positively Inc. www.ForeignPartsPositively.com
__________________
--Drew
Guys,
Since the Porsches have flat tappet cams, this article is important. The article is from the Feb issue of Octagon (the MG owner's club magazine).
Upkeep and Performance Hints
Motor Oils Are Not What They Used to Be
by Keith Ausell
About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc-diallkyl-dithiophosphate (zDDP) in the oils supplied with API approval that could affect sliding and high pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The reduction of these chemicals in supplied oil was based on the fact that zinc, manganese and/or phosphates reduce the effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere.
A month or so ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club bring a totally failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had only 900 miles on them!! I immediately contacted the camshaft re-grinder and asked how this could happen. They were well aware of this problem as they were starting to have many failures of this type. In the past, the lack of a molybdenum disulfide camshaft assembly lubricant was about the only thing that could create this type of problem. My customer has assembled many engines and had lubricated the camshaft properly. This got me on the phone to Delta Camshaft, one of our major suppliers. Then the bad news came out: It’s today’s "modern" API (American Petroleum Industry) approved oils that are killing our engines.
Next call: To a racing oil manufacturer that we use for the race cars (Redline). Their response: "We are well aware of the problem and we still use the correct amounts of those additives in our products". They continued to tell me they are not producing API approved oils so they don’t have to test and comply. Their oils were NOT the "new, improved and approved" ones that destroy flat tappet engines! "We just build the best lubricants possible". Sounds stupid, doesn’t it, New-Approved but inferior products, but it seems to be true for our cars.
To top this off our representative from a major supplier of performance and street engine parts (EPWI) stopped by to "warn us" of the problem of the NEW oils on flat tappet engines. This was a call that the representative was making only because of this problem to warn their engine builders! "The reduction of the zinc, manganese and phosphates are causing very early destruction of cams and followers". They are recommending that, for now at least. There must be a proper oil additive put in the first oil used on new engines, beyond the liberal use of molydisulfide assembly lube. They have been told that the first oil is the time the additives are needed but remain skeptical that the first change is all that is needed by their statement: Use diesel rated oils that are usually available at auto stores and truck stops.
Next phone call was to a retired engineer from Clevite, a major bearing and component manufacturer. First surprise was that he restored older British Motor bikes. The second surprise was that he was "VERY-aware of this problem because many of the old bikes had rectangular tappets that couldn’t rotate and are having a very large problem with the new oils. He has written an article for the British Bike community that verify all the "bad news" we have been finding.
Comp Cams put out "#225 Tech Bulletin: Flat Tappet Camshafts". They have both an assembly lube and an oil additive. The telling sentence in the bulletin was "While this additive was originally developed specifically for break-in protection subsequent testing has proven the durability benefits of its long term use. This special blend of additives promotes proper break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter failure by replacing some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been required to remove from their "shelf oil ".
Next question: Now what do we do? From the camshaft re-grinders (DeltaCam) "Use oils rated for diesel use". Delco (Standard Oil product) was named. About the same price as other quality petroleum based oils. They are not API formulated and have the zinc dithiophosphate we need in weights we are familiar with. From the camshaft manufacturer (Crane): "use our additive" for the first 500 miles. From General Motors (Chevrolet): add EOS, their oil fortifier to your oil, it’s only about $14.00 for each oil change for an 8 ounce can. (This problem seems to be something GM has known about for some time!)
From Redline Oil: Use our street formulated synthetics. They have what we need! From Castrol: We are beginning to see a pattern emerging on older cars. It may he advantageous to use a non-approved lubricant, such as oils that are Diesel rated, 4 Cycle Motorcycle oils and other specified diesel oils.
Last question: So what are we at Foreign Parts Positively going to do? After much research we are switching to Redline Street rated oils and stocking the Castrol Products that are diesel rated. This is a difficult decision as we have been a dealer and great believer in all Castrol Products for over 40 years. We have been using Castro! Syntech oil in new engines for about 3 years so the cost difference is minimal on new engines. The actual cost in operation is also less as the additive package in Redline makes a 1-year or up to 18,000 mile change recommended!
Yes it is a long change interval but with lowered sulfur levels and the elimination of lead and many other chemicals in the fuels there are less contaminants in our oil from the fuel which is the major contributor to oil degradation. We will continue to offer the Castrol products but will now only stock the suggested diesel oils that they produce.
Too many things are starting to show up on this subject and it has cost us money and time. Be aware that "New and Improved"’, or even products we have been using for many years destroys our cars as it isn’t the same stuff we were getting even a year ago.
If you have any additional input let us know. We need to let every flat tappet engine owner. i.e.: every British Car owner know that things are changing and we MUST meet the challenge.
Keith Ansell - President Foreign Parts Positively Inc. www.ForeignPartsPositively.com
__________________
--Drew
04-10-2007, 11:41 PM
#2
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
From General Motors (Chevrolet): add EOS, their oil fortifier to your oil, it’s only about $14.00 for each oil change for an 8 ounce can. (This problem seems to be something GM has known about for some time!)
Go to the local Goodwrench store and by the 8 oz can..
Edit 2 cans
Go to the local Goodwrench store and by the 8 oz can..
Edit 2 cans
04-11-2007, 01:00 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Airlie Beach, Australia
Posts: 870
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello,
these links may add to more understanding about engine lubricants
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-forum/342882-oil-again-mobil-1-15w-50-new-formulation.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/911-forum/341405-oil-question.html
Regards
these links may add to more understanding about engine lubricants
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-forum/342882-oil-again-mobil-1-15w-50-new-formulation.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/911-forum/341405-oil-question.html
Regards
04-11-2007, 02:25 PM
#5
Burning Brakes
Doug.....have been using Delvak in my 87 as per previous conversations...without spending hours to follow this thread, is Delvak still meeting standards?
Thanks
John T
Thanks
John T
04-11-2007, 04:35 PM
#6
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Airlie Beach, Australia
Posts: 870
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi John,
yes Delvac 1 5w-40 (reformulated) still remains an excellent Commercial HDEO for mixed fleets and our EURO cars
It is still a Group 4/5 lubricant with around 22% ester content which makes it ideal for Turbo equipped high/sttress/load engines. It is still in my 928 and other vehicles as it has been for a decade or so
Regards
yes Delvac 1 5w-40 (reformulated) still remains an excellent Commercial HDEO for mixed fleets and our EURO cars
It is still a Group 4/5 lubricant with around 22% ester content which makes it ideal for Turbo equipped high/sttress/load engines. It is still in my 928 and other vehicles as it has been for a decade or so
Regards
Last edited by Doug Hillary; 04-11-2007 at 05:04 PM.
Trending Topics
10-30-2007, 02:41 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
Any updates on this thread ?
I am due for an oil change soon , am i still ok with mobil 1 15/50 ?
Also is it better to wait till spring or change before winter?
I am due for an oil change soon , am i still ok with mobil 1 15/50 ?
Also is it better to wait till spring or change before winter?
10-30-2007, 03:18 PM
#10
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Columbia, MD
Posts: 1,180
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The v-twin oils are better than the standard mobil one synthetics for air cooled cars; is redline available across the pond? If not, Motul makes some nice products...
10-31-2007, 12:56 PM
#14
Instructor
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pleasanton, CA
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Turbo Jonny asked about M1 15/50, and I used that for years in my KTM 4-strokes because it's NOT API re-formulated and does not have "friction modifiers" that ruin a wet clutch. So I would suspect that the 15-50 (red cap) is still a good candidate.
I used M1 0-40 in my Audi for years before switching to Redline 5-40 and noticed a substantial reduction in oil temps. So I was planning to go with Redline on this car anyway.
On a sidenote, I tried M1 "High Mileage" in my Montero (152k) as I thought it would help the main seal weep and noisy cold lifters. I was shocked that for the entire duration of that oil service the car leaked MORE and took 10mi (instead of 15sec) for the lifters to fill. Snake Oil crap that was. If you have a hi-mile motor, do the Chemtool flush. Dump a quart in just before the oil change, run the engine at 2k for 5-10min, you'll be shocked what drains out!
I used M1 0-40 in my Audi for years before switching to Redline 5-40 and noticed a substantial reduction in oil temps. So I was planning to go with Redline on this car anyway.
On a sidenote, I tried M1 "High Mileage" in my Montero (152k) as I thought it would help the main seal weep and noisy cold lifters. I was shocked that for the entire duration of that oil service the car leaked MORE and took 10mi (instead of 15sec) for the lifters to fill. Snake Oil crap that was. If you have a hi-mile motor, do the Chemtool flush. Dump a quart in just before the oil change, run the engine at 2k for 5-10min, you'll be shocked what drains out!
11-01-2007, 01:57 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
Had a talk with Opie oils today who recommended the electrostatic ester based oils.It was a toss up between Redline motul and silkolene.Silkolene was the best deal available at the time.With winter coming and the fact that my car has only 14K miles we decided on 5/40 grade.