Tit-Wagon - 964C2
01-21-2017, 05:58 AM
#76
Instructor
Thread Starter
Paint touch-ups
Not really that exciting, but this being my maintenance and modding log, I thought I'd put it here.
Have been doing some painting at home. Reinforces my respect for those of you that can paint successfully at home...
The black parts of the bumpers and skirts were showing a few years of degredation, so I thought I'd re-paint them. Followed the usual process. Thoroughly cleaned the area, sanded it (800 and 1200), wax and grease remover, then primer, then bumper black. Used the repco stuff which turned out to be a bit less glossy than what was on there before.
All taped & covered up:
Satisfactory result...now I have to do the side-skirts...
Have been doing some painting at home. Reinforces my respect for those of you that can paint successfully at home...
The black parts of the bumpers and skirts were showing a few years of degredation, so I thought I'd re-paint them. Followed the usual process. Thoroughly cleaned the area, sanded it (800 and 1200), wax and grease remover, then primer, then bumper black. Used the repco stuff which turned out to be a bit less glossy than what was on there before.
All taped & covered up:
Satisfactory result...now I have to do the side-skirts...
01-21-2017, 06:01 AM
#77
Instructor
Thread Starter
I've also been fiddling with a set of Cult-Werk Brake Ducts. They are really nice quality pieces. I prefer how the mounting screws are hidden as well.
For these, I made the mistake of mixing brands of primer with a different brand of paint. I followed "good" procedure - pre-sand, wax and grease remover, put primer in hot water then shake for five min and lay on multiple light layers. I thought it was all good, but when the grand-prix white undercoat went down it blistered when it dried:
Blistering - if you look closely at the bottom of the duct
So I had to sand it back down and try again...THREE TIMES! grr... this happened over the course of two weeks because I was trying to let the coats dry properly in case that was what was causing the blistering..
Finally, I did the gloss-coat. They took three primer coats, four white coats, and four gloss coats. Plus a bit of sanding and correction here and there. They still need a polish and wax once the clear-coat has had a few days to dry.
(Next time I'll just pay someone who knows what they are doing...this took way too much time and rattle-can dizziness - Yes..I used breathing protection!)
I'll be pulling the bumper off soon to install these, fix the classic 964 'smile' and poor fitment of the black bodywork underneath the bumper.
Finally, I've just send a few thousand Aussie paesos overseas. Hopefully, in return, I'll receive some suspension upgrades...
For these, I made the mistake of mixing brands of primer with a different brand of paint. I followed "good" procedure - pre-sand, wax and grease remover, put primer in hot water then shake for five min and lay on multiple light layers. I thought it was all good, but when the grand-prix white undercoat went down it blistered when it dried:
Blistering - if you look closely at the bottom of the duct
So I had to sand it back down and try again...THREE TIMES! grr... this happened over the course of two weeks because I was trying to let the coats dry properly in case that was what was causing the blistering..
Finally, I did the gloss-coat. They took three primer coats, four white coats, and four gloss coats. Plus a bit of sanding and correction here and there. They still need a polish and wax once the clear-coat has had a few days to dry.
(Next time I'll just pay someone who knows what they are doing...this took way too much time and rattle-can dizziness - Yes..I used breathing protection!)
I'll be pulling the bumper off soon to install these, fix the classic 964 'smile' and poor fitment of the black bodywork underneath the bumper.
Finally, I've just send a few thousand Aussie paesos overseas. Hopefully, in return, I'll receive some suspension upgrades...
01-21-2017, 08:39 AM
#79
Instructor
Thread Starter
03-18-2017, 02:36 AM
#80
Instructor
Thread Starter
Preparing for a week in Tasmania
Next weekend a group of guys from Sydney will be meeting the local crew and myself for a quick coffee and catch up. From there, I'll be leading that crew down to Melbourne to meet up with more P-Car owners as we prepare to board the ferry to Tasmania. In total, there'll be 15 of us spending a week on the Island driving a good portion of the Targa Tasmania stages.
I've done this before, in late 2015, and it's a good excuse to get some upgrade and maintenance items done before we leave.
Suspension
Namely, finally get some refreshed suspension in the car!
I’m a KW fanboy, and admittedly didn’t really consider any alternatives. I’ve had KW in two of my other cars and love the product. For this car, I went with V1’s because I know I’ll never really fiddle with the rebound and compression settings once the car is set. I’ve also got a set of Rennline camber-plates and a carbon strut-brace to top it all off in the front end.
Now, when I was doing my research, some things weren’t clear to me - such as - I’d read that the KW V1’s and V3’s for the early 964’s (pre ’92) come with mono-ball top-mounts on the rear struts.
Guess what; they do! Bonus!
So that saved the expensive of buying additional mono-ball top-mounts for the rear.
Now. Some of you might wonder about NVH with mono-***** in a street car. For me, this is a fun weekend car and I’m fine with that risk. Also, the top-mount bushings were pretty old in my car, so they needed replacing either way.
My other car is a 2010 JCW mini, with KW’s and camber-plates. That thing is the proverbial go-kart. Which makes the 964 feel a bit mushy in comparison. So again, I welcome the firmness of the mono-*****.
The Products
Rennline Mono-ball top-mounts and Camber-plates:
KW V1’s
Sorry - didn’t get a pre-install photo of the strut brace.
The Install
First of all, I had to ‘build-up’ the suspension parts. Mainly the camber plates and then mate them to the front coilovers. This was pretty straight forward. I read a few threads about interference between the plate and the struts when deflected. The shaft of the strut isn’t a long as I would have liked.
So, when assembling the plates, I used the 6mm spacers (the ‘step bushing’ in the diagram below) on bottom and top, and an additional 6mm to try get the clearance for strut deflection. Don’t forget to set the bottom spacer in with the dust boot. I also used loctite on all of the nuts and bolts.
Here’s Rennline’s install instructions borrowed from another thread on RL:
Yes! There’s two spacers in there! I deflected the struts as far as possible, and they didn’t touch the base of the plate or the dust boot.
Also, that top nut is 26mm deep, so most of the nut is on the thread...
Some threads that helped me for the rennine plates:
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...er-plates.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...questions.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...ferrerid=93689
Once that was all assembled, next I had to start getting the old gear out of the car. I found these threads helpful (noting that the are 993, there are some similarities):
http://p-car.com/diy/sus/
http://www.jackals-forge.com/lotus/9...uspension.html
Rear Suspension
I found the rears more difficult than the fronts. In the rear, you have to get the heater blower out on the left side of the car, and the airbox out on the right side of the car.
First you have to undo the rear sway-bar. No need to fiddle with the drop links, just undo the bushed mounts on the body of the car:
Undoing the top-nuts was a giant pain as they were difficult to access, but got it done..
Rear Right:
Rear Left:
Then undo the bolt going to the trailing arm. This is torqued to 200NM, so you’ll need a long breaker bar:
That’s it, really. With a bit of patience, it should all come out:
When you’re putting it all back in, you’ll need another person. Someone down on the ground positioning the strut, and someone up top guiding the top-mount bolts into their respective holes and getting the nuts on. I found lightly putting in the trailing-arm bolt and using a jack to move the whole assembly up was helpful. With a bit of colourful language it is possible. Beware the mono-ball deflecting, making it hard to position the bolts!
In!
Don’t forget to torque everything up. My torque wrench only goes up to 150NM, so my alignment guy will have to help me out there. I also used nickel anti-seize on all the bolts.
Front Suspension
I found the front’s less difficult, except for dremelling out the brake-line bracket. This was ok, as the old struts were ready for the bin anyway. As with the rear, there aren’t that many bolts. Undo all the cable holders and cut the brake line bracket open to get the line out. The assembly should come out no problem:
Everything out:
You might note that I set the suspension at maximum height. Not sure why I did that….but will get to setting the height later…
So, now you transfer the electrical and brake line connections over to the new struts and install:
There was some kind of thick double-sided tape between the old strut tops and the body of the car. When I removed the old suspension, some of it tore away. I added some additional double-sided tape to fill the gaps. I assume this was to prevent NVH and keep junk out of the trunk area…
I tried to match the camber plates. I’m not going to drive the car much until it gets aligned…
Rinse and repeat for the other side of the car. Then I put on the strut brace. The previous owner installed this stereo amp. I’d like to remove it, but that’s a project for another time. For now, the brace goes nicely between the amp and fuel-tank sender.
Setting Ride Height
To set the ride height, I looked around for RS specs. There were a few threads, but used this one:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...my-964-c2.html
Carrera RS spec
V=125mm
H=218mm
ROW Spec
V=165mm
H=258mm
I basically measured the distance from the floor to those points, then measured the current height setting on the coil-over sleeve. Then I subtracted the amount that would get me those ‘V’ and ‘H’ measurements to get the sleeve height on the strut body. I understand that the suspension would settle, but I assumed that a factory height setting wouldn’t be too crazy. I was wrong. The rear tires were tucking! I double checked this, and in the end, I added 20mm either side on the rears to get a visually equivalent wheel gap front to rear. The car now sits with a slight bit of rake, but it’s not too bad.
Looks the same as before!
I’ve taken the car around the local suburbs, and the difference is night at day (noting that the alignment still needs to be set). Everything is firmer, the steering is a lot lighter and the turn-in is improved quite a bit. I’m looking forward to the alignment!!
Sparco Seat
For tassie, I’ve temporarily installed a Sparco Evo 2 that has previously served time as my office chair. I’ve owned this seat for years, and it has been in two of my previous minis as well. It’s quite comfortable. I’ve used a generic Recaro runner and the old side-mounts that are with the seat.
I had to drill a new hole in the side-mounts to fit the belt buckle. There is very little space between the seat and the centre tunnel. Everything else was generally predictable:
Lots of spare change under that seat! You’ll note the absence of a spoiler computer, which is a project I’d like to complete this year:
The standard seat will go back in after the Tassmania trip…
I've done this before, in late 2015, and it's a good excuse to get some upgrade and maintenance items done before we leave.
Suspension
Namely, finally get some refreshed suspension in the car!
I’m a KW fanboy, and admittedly didn’t really consider any alternatives. I’ve had KW in two of my other cars and love the product. For this car, I went with V1’s because I know I’ll never really fiddle with the rebound and compression settings once the car is set. I’ve also got a set of Rennline camber-plates and a carbon strut-brace to top it all off in the front end.
Now, when I was doing my research, some things weren’t clear to me - such as - I’d read that the KW V1’s and V3’s for the early 964’s (pre ’92) come with mono-ball top-mounts on the rear struts.
Guess what; they do! Bonus!
So that saved the expensive of buying additional mono-ball top-mounts for the rear.
Now. Some of you might wonder about NVH with mono-***** in a street car. For me, this is a fun weekend car and I’m fine with that risk. Also, the top-mount bushings were pretty old in my car, so they needed replacing either way.
My other car is a 2010 JCW mini, with KW’s and camber-plates. That thing is the proverbial go-kart. Which makes the 964 feel a bit mushy in comparison. So again, I welcome the firmness of the mono-*****.
The Products
Rennline Mono-ball top-mounts and Camber-plates:
KW V1’s
Sorry - didn’t get a pre-install photo of the strut brace.
The Install
First of all, I had to ‘build-up’ the suspension parts. Mainly the camber plates and then mate them to the front coilovers. This was pretty straight forward. I read a few threads about interference between the plate and the struts when deflected. The shaft of the strut isn’t a long as I would have liked.
So, when assembling the plates, I used the 6mm spacers (the ‘step bushing’ in the diagram below) on bottom and top, and an additional 6mm to try get the clearance for strut deflection. Don’t forget to set the bottom spacer in with the dust boot. I also used loctite on all of the nuts and bolts.
Here’s Rennline’s install instructions borrowed from another thread on RL:
Yes! There’s two spacers in there! I deflected the struts as far as possible, and they didn’t touch the base of the plate or the dust boot.
Also, that top nut is 26mm deep, so most of the nut is on the thread...
Some threads that helped me for the rennine plates:
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...er-plates.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...questions.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...ferrerid=93689
Once that was all assembled, next I had to start getting the old gear out of the car. I found these threads helpful (noting that the are 993, there are some similarities):
http://p-car.com/diy/sus/
http://www.jackals-forge.com/lotus/9...uspension.html
Rear Suspension
I found the rears more difficult than the fronts. In the rear, you have to get the heater blower out on the left side of the car, and the airbox out on the right side of the car.
First you have to undo the rear sway-bar. No need to fiddle with the drop links, just undo the bushed mounts on the body of the car:
Undoing the top-nuts was a giant pain as they were difficult to access, but got it done..
Rear Right:
Rear Left:
Then undo the bolt going to the trailing arm. This is torqued to 200NM, so you’ll need a long breaker bar:
That’s it, really. With a bit of patience, it should all come out:
When you’re putting it all back in, you’ll need another person. Someone down on the ground positioning the strut, and someone up top guiding the top-mount bolts into their respective holes and getting the nuts on. I found lightly putting in the trailing-arm bolt and using a jack to move the whole assembly up was helpful. With a bit of colourful language it is possible. Beware the mono-ball deflecting, making it hard to position the bolts!
In!
Don’t forget to torque everything up. My torque wrench only goes up to 150NM, so my alignment guy will have to help me out there. I also used nickel anti-seize on all the bolts.
Front Suspension
I found the front’s less difficult, except for dremelling out the brake-line bracket. This was ok, as the old struts were ready for the bin anyway. As with the rear, there aren’t that many bolts. Undo all the cable holders and cut the brake line bracket open to get the line out. The assembly should come out no problem:
Everything out:
You might note that I set the suspension at maximum height. Not sure why I did that….but will get to setting the height later…
So, now you transfer the electrical and brake line connections over to the new struts and install:
There was some kind of thick double-sided tape between the old strut tops and the body of the car. When I removed the old suspension, some of it tore away. I added some additional double-sided tape to fill the gaps. I assume this was to prevent NVH and keep junk out of the trunk area…
I tried to match the camber plates. I’m not going to drive the car much until it gets aligned…
Rinse and repeat for the other side of the car. Then I put on the strut brace. The previous owner installed this stereo amp. I’d like to remove it, but that’s a project for another time. For now, the brace goes nicely between the amp and fuel-tank sender.
Setting Ride Height
To set the ride height, I looked around for RS specs. There were a few threads, but used this one:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...my-964-c2.html
Carrera RS spec
V=125mm
H=218mm
ROW Spec
V=165mm
H=258mm
I basically measured the distance from the floor to those points, then measured the current height setting on the coil-over sleeve. Then I subtracted the amount that would get me those ‘V’ and ‘H’ measurements to get the sleeve height on the strut body. I understand that the suspension would settle, but I assumed that a factory height setting wouldn’t be too crazy. I was wrong. The rear tires were tucking! I double checked this, and in the end, I added 20mm either side on the rears to get a visually equivalent wheel gap front to rear. The car now sits with a slight bit of rake, but it’s not too bad.
Looks the same as before!
I’ve taken the car around the local suburbs, and the difference is night at day (noting that the alignment still needs to be set). Everything is firmer, the steering is a lot lighter and the turn-in is improved quite a bit. I’m looking forward to the alignment!!
Sparco Seat
For tassie, I’ve temporarily installed a Sparco Evo 2 that has previously served time as my office chair. I’ve owned this seat for years, and it has been in two of my previous minis as well. It’s quite comfortable. I’ve used a generic Recaro runner and the old side-mounts that are with the seat.
I had to drill a new hole in the side-mounts to fit the belt buckle. There is very little space between the seat and the centre tunnel. Everything else was generally predictable:
Lots of spare change under that seat! You’ll note the absence of a spoiler computer, which is a project I’d like to complete this year:
The standard seat will go back in after the Tassmania trip…
03-18-2017, 03:17 AM
#82
Instructor
Thread Starter
03-18-2017, 06:14 AM
#83
Rennlist Member
Nice one Tiaan. Nothing like a good road trip with other Porsche addicts. Many 964s going?
I've just pulled my engine for a full reseal, but I have the other 964 to run in. Hopefully I'll get a 700km back road run next weekend.
I've just pulled my engine for a full reseal, but I have the other 964 to run in. Hopefully I'll get a 700km back road run next weekend.
03-18-2017, 08:08 AM
#84
Instructor
Thread Starter
4 964s. It's a good spread. 930s, 928s, 996s, boxster spider, IB cars etc...
Last edited by 964tit; 03-18-2017 at 08:35 AM.
11-28-2017, 08:46 PM
#85
Instructor
Thread Starter
Finally! I'm sorting out the spoiler and the aircon...this it he first part as the car is still in pieces. Car will be off the road for probably four weeks in total, accounting for ordering parts once we've examined the bits and pieces we pull out.
Main goals:
Previously, at least under my ownership, this car has had a bunch of dye shoved through it looking for leaks, as well as the goo designed to plug small leaks. We've looked at every part of the A/C under the blue-light for dye leaks and couldn't find anything. Ultimately, the last bit we couldn't see was the evaporator, TX valve, and the connections in the back of the frunk... So it had to come out...
Luckily my mechanic has 20 years of air-con experience under his belt, so diagnosing this is all second nature for him...plus he's an auto-electrician by training, so that will help with un-mucking the damage caused by the stereo wiring as well as sorting out the spoiler.
Out comes the carpet, strut brace, the ghetto-mounted amp and also loosten up the fuse box:
Of course, I'd filled up the car a few weeks prior, and didn't drive it at all. So guess what...we had to drain an almost full fuel tank...
Finally, the fuel-tank came out...
I didn't take enough pictures at this point, or they sucked due to low light (so apologies for poor focus). We had to go into the cabin and pull out the head-unit and CCU to get to the screws behind the evaporator 'suit-case' (technical term!). I also yanked out all of the recalcitrant stereo wiring that went back out to the amp. We had to be careful to not damage the ancient heater ducts, as they also attached to the evap suit-case in the frunk...
Getting the Evap 'suit-case' out was a right PITA. Because our (RHD) steering column is on the same side as the fuse-box, there was quite a bit of faffing about getting it out. All of the heater duct connections in the cabin had to be disconnected as well as the fresh-air duct from under the windscreen. It was a two person job, but we finally got it out..
And it's out on the bench to assess:
Main goals:
- Get A/C working again
- Get spoiler working again
- Remove after-market stereo junk (except head unit)
Previously, at least under my ownership, this car has had a bunch of dye shoved through it looking for leaks, as well as the goo designed to plug small leaks. We've looked at every part of the A/C under the blue-light for dye leaks and couldn't find anything. Ultimately, the last bit we couldn't see was the evaporator, TX valve, and the connections in the back of the frunk... So it had to come out...
Luckily my mechanic has 20 years of air-con experience under his belt, so diagnosing this is all second nature for him...plus he's an auto-electrician by training, so that will help with un-mucking the damage caused by the stereo wiring as well as sorting out the spoiler.
Out comes the carpet, strut brace, the ghetto-mounted amp and also loosten up the fuse box:
Of course, I'd filled up the car a few weeks prior, and didn't drive it at all. So guess what...we had to drain an almost full fuel tank...
Finally, the fuel-tank came out...
I didn't take enough pictures at this point, or they sucked due to low light (so apologies for poor focus). We had to go into the cabin and pull out the head-unit and CCU to get to the screws behind the evaporator 'suit-case' (technical term!). I also yanked out all of the recalcitrant stereo wiring that went back out to the amp. We had to be careful to not damage the ancient heater ducts, as they also attached to the evap suit-case in the frunk...
Getting the Evap 'suit-case' out was a right PITA. Because our (RHD) steering column is on the same side as the fuse-box, there was quite a bit of faffing about getting it out. All of the heater duct connections in the cabin had to be disconnected as well as the fresh-air duct from under the windscreen. It was a two person job, but we finally got it out..
And it's out on the bench to assess:
11-28-2017, 08:47 PM
#86
Instructor
Thread Starter
Some things we have noted in the process:
Spoiler
This one has been a slow project. When I got the car, it had a heinous wing on it. The deck-lid it has now, is actually off @JV911 's mighty 964 RS4. I had it painted GPW, but hadn't gotten around to making the spoiler work, as the spoiler ECU under the driver's seat was missing. I finally got hold of an ECU and my mechanic wired up the motor and everything. AND IT WORKS!! WOOOO!!!
Just need a spoiler-curtain and to make sure it's properly calibrated on the micro-switches (extension and retraction limits), make sure all of the mechanisms are lubricated, and we should be good to go.
One thing I did learn was that as my car is an early 964, it had a different part number (964 618 212 00), from the newer (>'91) models (964 618 142 00). But the later ECU does work. In later cars, the ECU was under the dash, not the right-hand side seat...
Here's a related TSB: https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...module-pn.html
The module as it arrived in it's parcel...
Sorry for the terrible photos!
- The sins of previous stereo installers and mechanics were obvious.
- Stereo - the amp was mounted with tec screws (F#@$@#), and they sika-flexed some of the cabling (rather than using a gromet) through the firewall.
- A/C - it looks like someone has previously had a go at this, and decided it was all too hard and just replaced the T/X valve. So the valve is brand-new, but on inspection, the evaporator is full of crud. It is clearly leaking, as the A/C oil is all through the ducts.
- The heater fans ('squirrel cages') are out of true and a bit worn down, hence the squealing from the interior vents at certain fan speeds...
Spoiler
This one has been a slow project. When I got the car, it had a heinous wing on it. The deck-lid it has now, is actually off @JV911 's mighty 964 RS4. I had it painted GPW, but hadn't gotten around to making the spoiler work, as the spoiler ECU under the driver's seat was missing. I finally got hold of an ECU and my mechanic wired up the motor and everything. AND IT WORKS!! WOOOO!!!
Just need a spoiler-curtain and to make sure it's properly calibrated on the micro-switches (extension and retraction limits), make sure all of the mechanisms are lubricated, and we should be good to go.
One thing I did learn was that as my car is an early 964, it had a different part number (964 618 212 00), from the newer (>'91) models (964 618 142 00). But the later ECU does work. In later cars, the ECU was under the dash, not the right-hand side seat...
Here's a related TSB: https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...module-pn.html
The module as it arrived in it's parcel...
Sorry for the terrible photos!
11-28-2017, 10:29 PM
#87
Rennlist Member
Good work Tiaan, those are both tasks I need to sort on my car. Make sure you detail the sources for the parts required and any tips.
BTW: I sourced a spoiler and a later controller unit but am still looking for the mechanism. In the meantime it may be a fixed shut effort, which shouldn't affect handling. At least I hope it won't.
BTW: I sourced a spoiler and a later controller unit but am still looking for the mechanism. In the meantime it may be a fixed shut effort, which shouldn't affect handling. At least I hope it won't.
11-28-2017, 10:45 PM
#88
Instructor
Thread Starter
Good work Tiaan, those are both tasks I need to sort on my car. Make sure you detail the sources for the parts required and any tips.
BTW: I sourced a spoiler and a later controller unit but am still looking for the mechanism. In the meantime it may be a fixed shut effort, which shouldn't affect handling. At least I hope it won't.
BTW: I sourced a spoiler and a later controller unit but am still looking for the mechanism. In the meantime it may be a fixed shut effort, which shouldn't affect handling. At least I hope it won't.
The spoiler motor...hmm...that took me a while. Eventually I managed to buy a whole deck-lid with it on there, only to find out after that the module was missing under the seat!
I didn't have any of the motor connected for ages, and I think the spoiler has been slightly 'bouncing' back there, as there's witness marks in the paint (usually hidden under the spoiler), so I'd recommend securing the spoiler down so it does not do that.
11-28-2017, 11:04 PM
#89
Rennlist Member
Mine came off a car where it had been fixed down nicely. My Silver C4 has a spoiler which I suspect is the cause of my constant red lights. It's noticeably bouncy when retracted. Is that normal?
11-29-2017, 12:32 AM
#90
Instructor
Thread Starter