VR6-er

There has been much about the benefits of Motec and other ECU conversions over the standard Motronic. They do however cost a few quid and for the limited miles I do in the '64 I can't justify it to the trouble and strife. For some reason she thinks buying curtains and furniture is more important.

Some questions that spring to mind....
What specifically do these do more than Motronic?
Isn't there a newer Bosch system that can be used, using existing Porsche loom, injectors parts etc.

ras62

NineMeister

This is not a fob-off, but please do a search through Rennlist for Motec and read as much of the threads as you have the heart for. I am 100% sure that this approach will find the answers to your questions and by the end of it you will also know the meaning of life.

In a nutshell:
The stock Motronic system ceilings engine performance around 300-305hp rendering any additional engine upgrades superfluous.
A correctly engineered and installed Motec package (not just the ecu) the stock engine will make more power and support additional upgrades (camshafts, ported heads, 3.8 upgrade, etc.) with a performance benefit.
The downside is that Motec does not have knock control as standard (just like a 3.2 Carrera).
Other systems are available but do not (usually) have the benefit of the development time that has been put into 964 Motec packages.
The market is too limited to invest enough resources into transposing modern Bosch ecu's onto the 964 engine. The best you could do is fit a complete 993 55 pin system and remap that, but even that is not a simple upgrade.

Good luck with the search.

VR6-er

Thanks for the reply. The more I think about it the more I think, why am I trying to fix something that isn't broken?????

NineMeister

That all depends on whether you are happy with your 300hp 964.
If the answer is yes, it ain't broken so don't fix it.
If the answer is no, then it definitely needs fixin'.
It's that simple.

BigMikeATL

fixed it for you

jotaking

This is something that I have been pondering for some time.

From what I have read my understanding is...

To gain significant performance/output MOTEC would be the first stop before you start bolting on expensive performance parts?

It all depends on how far you want to go?

Full on racer, then I think it would be MOTEC, cams and ITB's etc...etc..

Street Demon - Motec and cams?

Street Poser (my category) - Roof down, ray bans

My only concern is what Colin said: -

What does the knock control do? and what is the main disadvantage to not having it?

Strega(UK)

Motec isn't expensive, it's the people who install it that sting you. Shop around there are plenty more people and systems about.

alexjc4

We need someone to make something like this for the 964 http://www.augmentautomotive.co.uk/augtronic

Its for the 944 but they run a similar ECU in many ways; Motronic ML3.1 vs M2.1, I was talking to some 944 guys at Donington about this, not looked in detail, but at first glance this guy has done something rather clever. Standard box with new guts, so you can use Alpha-N, MAP (speed density) or MAF (mass flow) for load measurement, keep the knock control and all sorts of other fun toys for about a grand.

NineMeister

I think that's harsh. The cost of the system is not all about the price of an ecu, what you are paying for is the complete package and the results it provides. If you want your car to drive like a factory car it will take time to fine tune properly, the shame of it is that few tuners understand this and send cars out with running faults that they attribute to the cams or other aspects of the engine design. Full power mapping is the easy bit, less than 5% of the requirement of the ecu. How many tuners would spend a week fine tuning cold start so that you can fire up the engine on zero throttle? Or spend a couple of hours on the road/track tweeking the fuel tip-in to maximise accelerative response?


For reference, The full installation of a 9m Motec conversion would take around 7 hours including making and fitting the parts to fit a TPS to the throttle body (without butchering the assembly), fitting the MAP & La sensors, wiring in the additional sensors (involving removal and refit of the interior trim), flow testing, balancing and fitting the new fuel injectors. Dyno testing before would add 30 minutes.
Dyno testing and set up afterwards would take 5-6 hours. Road testing and fine tuning will take 2 people around 2-3 hours, 4-5 hours total. I've been mapping these cars for over 10 years and still cannot reduce this time significantly, in fact I have a graduate engineer working for us on these systems and he takes twice as long as me and I still like to fine tune his end result.
Total cost at workshop rates ~ £1000-1500 depending on whether you charge 100/hr for dyno time.
9m charge a flat fee of £1000 nomatter how long it takes, as a rule we usually spend much longer fine tuning the system to find the last few hp.

What price level would be considered a sting?

Strega(UK)

Thought you might bite! I am just saying what everyone is thinking! I thought you charged about £4500 for this set up? So that makes a £1000 to set up, about £1000 for the box and £2500 profit...Nice!!

vagluv

2500 doesn't sound correct based on the math laid out above, but even if he was making $2500 profit out of one set up it would be worth it to the customer. You're paying for the expertise and years of research that have gone into what you're getting, not just some guy who's throwing in the parts. And I like the idea of the flat rate. Means the customer doesn't have to consider cutting corners to pinch some pennies...

You've also got to remember all the employees who are getting paid out of that profit.

Modifying cars, and doing so well, isn't cheap.

FeralComprehension

No, you're not.

My last real hi-po car was a Miata (=MX5=Eunos) with a turbo kit. Full aftermarket ECU, laptop logging, the whole bit. It put down about 225hp to the wheels, roughly 110% over stock.

While it was a great setup, it wasn't the slightest bit factory-like in terms of overall civility/livibility- I had to adjust start fuel at least once per season; winter settings choked it in the summer, and summer settings starved it in the fall. Tip-in/out was harsh on a good day, and BuckBobble rode around with me all the time.

Your post places no value on the expertise of the installer; if you have the skills to DIY and get it right, good for you. I don't, and I don't want another constant-project car like the Miata.

It all comes down to how you perceive value. As we speak, a guy is putting a new roof on my garage. It'll take him about a day, working by himself, a full tear-off. I'll pay him ~$2200 for that. Is he ripping me off? Hell no- I don't want to haul squares of shingles up there, strip off the old and haul it away- I'm getting a freaking deal.

Sure, 9m is expensive-seeming, but the service that you'd get is damned difficult to find. The older I get, the more valuable my time is and the more inclined I am to solve problems with my checkbook.

BLACK-BETTY

Your money + your homework =

KaiB

Sheeit! Run a shop do you?

Even given your numbers, you may reduce your "profit" by insurance, labor costs and salaries, shop overhead, business overhead, depreciation, R&D, licensing, a few things I've forgoten in my haste and....

...taxes.

THEN, and only then may you pay yourself and your investors.