boxsey911

That sounds a good idea. Indeed I've often been told by instructors that we need to relax to driver faster as that enables to the car to move around without us fighting it. I think I may even try saying out loud "look through" as I get on the brakes. I'm pretty sure I stare at the turn in point as I go on the brakes. If I can get myself to look up (using the ideas mentioned) I'll then be able to move on to 'feeling' the turn-in point rather than 'spotting' it and consequently reduce my over-braking tendency.

Makes me want to get back out on track now.

Babalouie

I find that in order to help myself "relax" in longer corners, I shift my sighting markers further down the track, ie skip from the turn in point to the apex, so the exit clipping point, to a random point down the straight earlier than usual.

It does seem to help me resist reacting to the car moving around, as it goes into the apex.

J richard

This is for any car on any track,but you need to train yourself to scan. Comming to a corner identify the turn in point and then immediately move your attention to the apex, this is while you're going into the braking zone, and then track out before you hit the apex, eyes up and out, and use your peripheial vision; you don't stare at curbs on the street do you? Once you have it in your mind it doesnt help to stare at it, move on to the next point or next corner! How do you know when to quit braking if you're staring at the apex curb cone or a brake marker? You want to look all the way around the corner, see the big picture about where you are going and how to place the car and balance the chassis. Are ther other cars you need to pass and how do you need to adjust your line and entry?!did someone spin and are sitting at track out? Gravel on the road? You can't be fluid if you are breaking up a corner into hard sections; start braking,stop braking, turn in, drive to apex, gas on, drive to track out/unwind, gas gas gas... You need to be more fluid in your thinking to be fast. You'll also find that you can be more relaxed, you can see where you are going and already have the car placed and balanced going into the corner because you are way ahead of the car.

If you are alway looking just ahead things will be coming at you really fast due to your closure rate eyes up and out gives you more time to deal and adjust, clear the track and check your mirrors. As part of your scan pick a point on the track and do your T's & P's: I start with rear mirror, speedo or laptime, r mirror, oil temp/pressure L mirror, fuel/warning lights, Eyes forward, tap the brake for knockback and go on. A scan like this will make sure you notice any issues like alowly rising temps or dropping pressures before it becomes an issue at a bad time. If you can the last straight before pit in is good so if you have a problem you can get off fast...

KaiB

THIS!

We should be scanning through all of our points at the bottom of our field of view, and then the peripheral, as we pass through the corner - with the eyes out to Herr Baba's point.

As mentioned earlier, this is one thing we should (must) be doing day in and day out while on the street. This is a huge help when we get to the track - I also believe firmly this is one of the major things which makes an experienced track driver better on the street.

HalV

What do you guys think about driving in the rain for practice? The first DE here seems like there is always some rain. Many times that leaves the track very empty.

My line of thinking is that driving in the rain helps me learn the limits of the car at a much lower speed, so I typically go out in the rain. This certainly was the case on one occasion as I got on the gas too early or hard in one corner and the back end came around putting me in the grass. No harm to the car but a little bruise to the ego.

Hal

KaiB

If you don't mind cleaning the mess up later, I think it's a wonderful idea for all the reasons you mentioned.

It also gives you another perspective of the track, as your line changes in many places - oddly, this helps learn the dry line later, huh?

Back to the whole vision thing also. Hal, I'm sure you've noticed that your eyes go down more often in the wet - as we all get a bit more "niddly".

I don't race in the rain as my car has never seen it, ever, in 20 years. For whatever plastic trophy I could earn, the risk and dirt are not worth it to me.

perelet

I thought somebody will ask about snap oversteer.

I'm not Matrix guy and can not see world in slo mo. Usually I realize that I'm in snap oversteer about 90deg into the spin. All that I do is both pedals down and wait for show to be over.


To my feeling rear kicks out - pretty quick in about 1/4 of sec. I use 180 tread wear tires and can not sense any indication before rear goes. I presume with slicks it happens even quicker.

Is there way to catch it? Or everybody just let's it be? 1/4 sec surely is not enough to do counter steer.

Oleg.

PS. Usually uncontrolled snap happens to me at about 50-70mph. In slower turns 25-35mph - by throttle steer I have much more control.

race911

Back to my earlier comment about most all cars we put on track having poor setup. NO car, 964 or not, should snap oversteer. (Treadwear rating on a tire is meaningless.)

I can't speak to your setup particulars as you haven't given any. But, as always, I recommend you work with a shop that knows THESE cars to work within your budget finding a good, driveable solution.

Now, to specifically answer your question, you've gotten to the point of no return either from a setup defect (above) or driving style. Bringing a car back from either scenario requires quick hands, and a light touch on the throttle. Experience counts. NOT a fun way to keep it on the track.

race911

Problem is, rain/wet surfaces are variable. Depends where you are on the learning curve, and your tolerance for risk. As you said, the track is usually really lightly populated, so it's a great opportunity to pick and choose where you want to take the risk. In other words, maybe NOT on the flat-in-4th sweeper.........

Where I see it not really paying off is in the non-repetitive part. Say on track for Turn X it's "brake at 3, downshift, turn in at 1, roll off the brake, settle on throttle at/near apex, back on gas, unwind wheel to track out." Now it's wet. But how wet? Are you still going into Turn X at 110? Maybe only 75 is prudent. Brake point might be inside the 2 now, with zero use of trailing brake. Apex is wet/slick, so you do a rim shot around the outside, all the while using maintenance throttle? Then the next lap you notice a dry line forming. Back on the apex? Wrong call, and it might mean you meeting a wall.

I thoroughly enjoying driving my '68 on dirt, way back when. Oddly, I only damaged the front taking a header into a hillside.

race911

Finally, I don't think I've seen any mention of data acquisition. ZERO reason not to use some system in today's world. Not everyone needs to pony up for AIM or Motec, even a Rumblestrip (made/distributed by one of the SF Spec Miata guys) will give you real time feedback. No, Cell phone apps don't count. You've spent how much on your car, and $1K to actually learn what's what is really only trumped by safety equipment.

If you do want to get into interpreting squiggly lines, it is absolutely mind blowing what you will learn. Especially when you compare to theoretical bests and/or lap record files from similar cars.

KaiB

Oleg, unless your car is really out of whack, let's take a better look at what's going on.

What have your instructors said and when and where is this occuring? Let's dig a bit deeper into causation, and then ponder remedy.

We're loosing control of the car for a reason, let's find out why. I have some ideas.

KaiB

To answer a more generic question.

A quarter second repsonse to a car already upset with you might as well be a year in some situations.

We don't want our cars telling us what to do - giving us feedback is a good thing from them, but once the car becomes the boss, we're usually way to late to reel it back in.

perelet

I'm not good driver and do spin and make mistakes. I've been at Skip barber 3days school and couple of PCA's. Instructor told me both pedals down - works for me.

From what you guys saying you are probably at the level when you never spin and have 100% control of your car all the the time.

For lesser drivers here are examples of what I'm talking about:

video of classic 911 doing it - time marker 1:27

video of 964 cup car doing it - time marker 0:24

video of GT3 cup doing it - time marker 0:12



My guess all cars in videos have ok suspension setup and still all of them do snap rear forward.

Thanks! I will check my suspension setup.
Oleg.

race911

#1 above was a promotional video shot for intended effect.

#2 above looks like the curb upset things. Can't blame the car. EZ save in the dry? Maybe. Probably isn't even a save.

#3 above was certainly not snap oversteer. 100% on the driver there. Everything gets loosy coming off of Laguna T2, all about tire management.

Babalouie

You'd be surprised at what slides can be caught

It's all a matter of practice, but the one thing I think I can suggest, is that it's 70% caught with the throttle, and the opposite lock is really just to stabilise the slide. Frequently, ppl focus solely on just counter-steering, whereas it's really their foot-position that doing all the damage and should be addressed first. And most important of all, you have to look at a point on the horizon where you want the car to go, you never "look down" at the ripple strips once the car kicks sideways