Track wheels
#16
Three Wheelin'
Another factor to consider is the tire weight difference between brands.
I run Yoko AD08's in 16" sizes for autocrossing in SCCA's Street Tire - C Stock class.
I narrowed my choice to the Yoko's and Bridgestone RE11's. I chose the AD08's because they were 2 lbs. lighter per tire in the front and 4 lbs lighter per tire in the rear. In fact in my sizes the Yoko's were also lighter than Dunlop Star Specs and Hankook RS3's.
I run Yoko AD08's in 16" sizes for autocrossing in SCCA's Street Tire - C Stock class.
I narrowed my choice to the Yoko's and Bridgestone RE11's. I chose the AD08's because they were 2 lbs. lighter per tire in the front and 4 lbs lighter per tire in the rear. In fact in my sizes the Yoko's were also lighter than Dunlop Star Specs and Hankook RS3's.
#17
Drifting
At the moment i use cup1 replicas from millemiglia for track, 17" with MSPC tires. The rims are a notch heavier than my OEM cup rims. But the weight of the tires are important to. The replica set up with MSPC are lighter than my OEM rims with Toyo 888's. Japaneese tires seems to be heavier than at least michelin. It was the same with an earlier set of bridgestone tires.
The price of 18" MPSC has come down to more or less 17" level now so for next season i'm now considering a set of BBS E28 rims in 18" if we can agree of the price tag. That would give me low weight and low flex due to lower profile. We'll see.
Thomas
The price of 18" MPSC has come down to more or less 17" level now so for next season i'm now considering a set of BBS E28 rims in 18" if we can agree of the price tag. That would give me low weight and low flex due to lower profile. We'll see.
Thomas
#19
Rennlist Member
Unfortunately, I don't use AIM otherwise I would and as much as I wish I could say I am a consistent enough driver that anyone would pay me money to drive, alas I cannot. So without proof to share I will leave it to KaiB.
Much more so than I original thought it would be, add the 4 pounds per corner i saved with the aluminum hats on the brakes and I can't imagine going back. now if I can only get through the driver improvement program and drop those extra pounds i might actually be fast.
Much more so than I original thought it would be, add the 4 pounds per corner i saved with the aluminum hats on the brakes and I can't imagine going back. now if I can only get through the driver improvement program and drop those extra pounds i might actually be fast.
#20
Nordschleife Master
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Don't misunderstand me here ya'll. I said I have no proof.
My comment, I had hoped, would only open doors to consideration that that much in weight savings (ca. 6#/corner) could certainly be worth discussing as measureable.
I say it is - once again without proof.
My comment, I had hoped, would only open doors to consideration that that much in weight savings (ca. 6#/corner) could certainly be worth discussing as measureable.
I say it is - once again without proof.
#21
Drifting
#22
Rennlist Member
I know I have a chevy avalanche that came with 2 sets of wheels the stock rims and tires which are 20" and weigh 61 pounds a corner and some larger 22" wheels and wider tires that weigh 76 pounds a corner. You can really feel the difference in acceleration and it is incredibly noticeable under hard braking that the car does not stop as quickly with the heavier wheels. It handles and rides better with the larger wheels and tires but the scary braking and significant reduction in gas mileage makes such a difference I stick with the stock wheels now. I am sure this would apply to track wheels and tires as well.
Ken we anxiously await your results and enjoy the day even if your on old RA-1's.
#23
Rennlist Member
Quick post mortem. Got 127 terminal speed today on one of two fliers, which is flirting with all-time best (2:02.7 lap, third of the day). Day was cut short for driving as I had the left front caliper bolts back out from the threads pulling from the hub. Grr...... Hopefully able to fix, as it's an RSR hub. But I can compare from last month with the 18s, and I'll make it a time-to-distance comparison as opposed to merely top speed.
#24
Rennlist Member
To finish off beating this dead horse, here's what I've come up with. All measurements are basically running up the front straight at Thunderhill. With the above-mentioned brake caliper mounting issue I wasn't able to put the RA1s on 18s on, so I had to go back and look at other data. But it's consistent.
So here goes (all measurements are over approximately 1670ft):
11/10 (~70F, no wind) with full tread RA1 235 + 275 on Fikse 8+ 10 X 18 (bypass pipes + Fabspeed mufflers)--
65.8MPH -> 115.3MPH (49.5MPH gain) in 12.329 sec
6/11 (~85F, no wind) severely worn RA1 235 + 275 on Kinesis 8 + 10 X 18 (catalytic converter + stock mufflers)--
64.5MPH -> 112.9MPH (48.4MPH gain) in 12.556 sec
7/11 (~98F, no wind) new, but 6 year old Hoosier GAC 245 + 275 on Cup 1 replica 7.5 + 9 X 17 (catalytic converter + stock mufflers)--
64.9MPH -> 115.4MPH (50.5MPH gain) in 11.132 sec
Now here's another data point. The Friday data I had to pull from further back in the lap since I was at 73.1MPH (v. ~65MPH) from running Hoosiers, albeit seemingly aged out ones. The ultimate laps being considered here were Example 1 @ 2:04.098 (bypass config, ~2 seconds quicker), Example 2 @ 2:07.609 (full config, really dead tires), Example 3 @ 2:02.756 (Hoosiers, new but 6 years old).
So draw your own conclusions. I submit that we're not good enough at our level for it to matter in the least....................... Most important thing is to have a well prepped car that is consistent, and from which you can learn.
(Obligatory videos here, of what NOT to do on track. #1 is just a bad line on a critical turn following a guy who'd held me up for at least 1/2 lap, then how long it takes for him to let me by. #2 is another guy I've come to know who is mirror-blind, and initially how far ahead he's leading the train to how clueless he is in letting people by to finally me taking an opening that, in retrospect, really wasn't there.)
So here goes (all measurements are over approximately 1670ft):
11/10 (~70F, no wind) with full tread RA1 235 + 275 on Fikse 8+ 10 X 18 (bypass pipes + Fabspeed mufflers)--
65.8MPH -> 115.3MPH (49.5MPH gain) in 12.329 sec
6/11 (~85F, no wind) severely worn RA1 235 + 275 on Kinesis 8 + 10 X 18 (catalytic converter + stock mufflers)--
64.5MPH -> 112.9MPH (48.4MPH gain) in 12.556 sec
7/11 (~98F, no wind) new, but 6 year old Hoosier GAC 245 + 275 on Cup 1 replica 7.5 + 9 X 17 (catalytic converter + stock mufflers)--
64.9MPH -> 115.4MPH (50.5MPH gain) in 11.132 sec
Now here's another data point. The Friday data I had to pull from further back in the lap since I was at 73.1MPH (v. ~65MPH) from running Hoosiers, albeit seemingly aged out ones. The ultimate laps being considered here were Example 1 @ 2:04.098 (bypass config, ~2 seconds quicker), Example 2 @ 2:07.609 (full config, really dead tires), Example 3 @ 2:02.756 (Hoosiers, new but 6 years old).
So draw your own conclusions. I submit that we're not good enough at our level for it to matter in the least....................... Most important thing is to have a well prepped car that is consistent, and from which you can learn.
(Obligatory videos here, of what NOT to do on track. #1 is just a bad line on a critical turn following a guy who'd held me up for at least 1/2 lap, then how long it takes for him to let me by. #2 is another guy I've come to know who is mirror-blind, and initially how far ahead he's leading the train to how clueless he is in letting people by to finally me taking an opening that, in retrospect, really wasn't there.)
#25
Three Wheelin'
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Wow, didn't realize this thread would provide such great reading! Thanks to all you guy for the great information. Let me clarify that I am but a plebian still at the street tire skill level. One bonus to the Cup II's is they came with a near brand new set of Michelin PS2's (9/32" tread depth left) for a grand total of $350. Should be worth some trackday hoots.
Thanks for the response Cobalt. I have no problem with 18's - I run the 18" turbo twist reps on the street as I like the look & don't worry about the extra weight off the track. I was mostly looking for 17's as consumables are cheaper, as well as the wheels themselves mostly being cheaper! Re: the chrome plating, I agree with you as far as weight & the crack issue. I'm fortunate enough that I work in a shop with access to a large media blasting cabinet and plan on blasting what I can of the plating off. Anything I should know about blasting chrome plating?
On the other hand, you've lodged some pretty serious doubts in my mind about these wheels. I may just run 'em till the tires are shot and look elsewhere.
I'm very interested, only thing is that in my mind HRE = $$$. PM me a dollar figure you had in mind and we'll go from there. I might be able to scrape something together.
Thanks for the offer, I'm way out of new Fikse price range right now - getting married in 2 months . Some day I imagine I'll be giving you a call though.
Sorry i didn't read this earlier but why the need to stay with factory wheels and 17's?
For starters I would never use a chromed wheel for track use. You can have a wheel begin to fail and never see it with all the chrome buildup. The cup II's are not much lighter than the cup I's and i am sure if you weigh them they weigh more than painted cup I's now that they have been plated.
You get much better feel and less sidewall flex with 18's I am using fikse's and they work better than the 8 & 9's CupI''s I have. Much less un-sprung weight, better turn in and yes the tires are slightly more expensive but not much.
The OZ's posted are the wheel of choice for most 964 track guys I know. Great price well made and durable. I would never compromise tires wheels or brakes for a small amount of money. Safety first. Yes you can use 18's on the track even though it is not recommended by Porsche. I have thousands of track miles on 18's and no issues at all.
Not trying to upset you but I think you will find you will be far happier with the OZ's than the Cup II's.
For starters I would never use a chromed wheel for track use. You can have a wheel begin to fail and never see it with all the chrome buildup. The cup II's are not much lighter than the cup I's and i am sure if you weigh them they weigh more than painted cup I's now that they have been plated.
You get much better feel and less sidewall flex with 18's I am using fikse's and they work better than the 8 & 9's CupI''s I have. Much less un-sprung weight, better turn in and yes the tires are slightly more expensive but not much.
The OZ's posted are the wheel of choice for most 964 track guys I know. Great price well made and durable. I would never compromise tires wheels or brakes for a small amount of money. Safety first. Yes you can use 18's on the track even though it is not recommended by Porsche. I have thousands of track miles on 18's and no issues at all.
Not trying to upset you but I think you will find you will be far happier with the OZ's than the Cup II's.
On the other hand, you've lodged some pretty serious doubts in my mind about these wheels. I may just run 'em till the tires are shot and look elsewhere.
I'm back to running some old Cup 1s on the faux RS since I have 3 sets of old (but new) 17" tires that are worth burning up at instruction days. Can't say I'm any slower than with the 18s, and actually my fastest times with the car were one time with some 245/275 17s right in their sweet spot.
I've got some old HRE 8 & 9 X 17 for 964 application that don't fit over Big Reds, up at the track. I'll be up there Friday, and if you're totally bummed about the chrome ones you picked up I can take some photos.
I've got some old HRE 8 & 9 X 17 for 964 application that don't fit over Big Reds, up at the track. I'll be up there Friday, and if you're totally bummed about the chrome ones you picked up I can take some photos.
Thanks for the offer, I'm way out of new Fikse price range right now - getting married in 2 months . Some day I imagine I'll be giving you a call though.
#26
Thanks for the info Ken! These threads and posts are pricele$$!
I've been looking for a set of used (light) 17's for a while. I'll take the wheels off the list and start looking for some RS bars instead.
I've been looking for a set of used (light) 17's for a while. I'll take the wheels off the list and start looking for some RS bars instead.
#27
Rennlist Member
To finish off beating this dead horse, here's what I've come up with. All measurements are basically running up the front straight at Thunderhill. With the above-mentioned brake caliper mounting issue I wasn't able to put the RA1s on 18s on, so I had to go back and look at other data. But it's consistent.
So here goes (all measurements are over approximately 1670ft):
11/10 (~70F, no wind) with full tread RA1 235 + 275 on Fikse 8+ 10 X 18 (bypass pipes + Fabspeed mufflers)--
65.8MPH -> 115.3MPH (49.5MPH gain) in 12.329 sec
6/11 (~85F, no wind) severely worn RA1 235 + 275 on Kinesis 8 + 10 X 18 (catalytic converter + stock mufflers)--
64.5MPH -> 112.9MPH (48.4MPH gain) in 12.556 sec
7/11 (~98F, no wind) new, but 6 year old Hoosier GAC 245 + 275 on Cup 1 replica 7.5 + 9 X 17 (catalytic converter + stock mufflers)--
64.9MPH -> 115.4MPH (50.5MPH gain) in 11.132 sec
Now here's another data point. The Friday data I had to pull from further back in the lap since I was at 73.1MPH (v. ~65MPH) from running Hoosiers, albeit seemingly aged out ones. The ultimate laps being considered here were Example 1 @ 2:04.098 (bypass config, ~2 seconds quicker), Example 2 @ 2:07.609 (full config, really dead tires), Example 3 @ 2:02.756 (Hoosiers, new but 6 years old).
So draw your own conclusions. I submit that we're not good enough at our level for it to matter in the least....................... Most important thing is to have a well prepped car that is consistent, and from which you can learn.
(Obligatory videos here, of what NOT to do on track. #1 is just a bad line on a critical turn following a guy who'd held me up for at least 1/2 lap, then how long it takes for him to let me by. #2 is another guy I've come to know who is mirror-blind, and initially how far ahead he's leading the train to how clueless he is in letting people by to finally me taking an opening that, in retrospect, really wasn't there.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1241ld4rs4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbYw-rfstao
So here goes (all measurements are over approximately 1670ft):
11/10 (~70F, no wind) with full tread RA1 235 + 275 on Fikse 8+ 10 X 18 (bypass pipes + Fabspeed mufflers)--
65.8MPH -> 115.3MPH (49.5MPH gain) in 12.329 sec
6/11 (~85F, no wind) severely worn RA1 235 + 275 on Kinesis 8 + 10 X 18 (catalytic converter + stock mufflers)--
64.5MPH -> 112.9MPH (48.4MPH gain) in 12.556 sec
7/11 (~98F, no wind) new, but 6 year old Hoosier GAC 245 + 275 on Cup 1 replica 7.5 + 9 X 17 (catalytic converter + stock mufflers)--
64.9MPH -> 115.4MPH (50.5MPH gain) in 11.132 sec
Now here's another data point. The Friday data I had to pull from further back in the lap since I was at 73.1MPH (v. ~65MPH) from running Hoosiers, albeit seemingly aged out ones. The ultimate laps being considered here were Example 1 @ 2:04.098 (bypass config, ~2 seconds quicker), Example 2 @ 2:07.609 (full config, really dead tires), Example 3 @ 2:02.756 (Hoosiers, new but 6 years old).
So draw your own conclusions. I submit that we're not good enough at our level for it to matter in the least....................... Most important thing is to have a well prepped car that is consistent, and from which you can learn.
(Obligatory videos here, of what NOT to do on track. #1 is just a bad line on a critical turn following a guy who'd held me up for at least 1/2 lap, then how long it takes for him to let me by. #2 is another guy I've come to know who is mirror-blind, and initially how far ahead he's leading the train to how clueless he is in letting people by to finally me taking an opening that, in retrospect, really wasn't there.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1241ld4rs4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbYw-rfstao
Wow, didn't realize this thread would provide such great reading! Thanks to all you guy for the great information. Let me clarify that I am but a plebian still at the street tire skill level. One bonus to the Cup II's is they came with a near brand new set of Michelin PS2's (9/32" tread depth left) for a grand total of $350. Should be worth some trackday hoots.
I agree with you evaluate how you are doing after a season and you will be a better driver for it in the end.