Thinking out loud, opinions appreciated...
05-28-2011, 08:59 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
Quick post here, as I'm pressed for time......but something to consider:
Thursday in that white "normal" GT3 which has Ohlins/regear/Yoko slicks/exhaust/etc., Johannes Van Overbeck did a mid-1:57, figured about 1 second off an ultimate lap.
My "class record" with the stock RSA (race shocks/400-600 springs/RS bars/245 & 275 Hoosiers/Pagid pads/2950 lbs w/ me, but otherwise 100% as delivered including a catalytic converter) I think still holds at 2:03.5.
Best I've done with the 993 on RA1s is 2:01.5. Mods too numerous to list, but it's got everything imaginable that you and do in a 3150 lb./320HP car.
My '92 C4 years ago on the old Kumho V700 225/255, Bilstein Euro RS street shocks, lowering springs, RS bars, Pagid pads @ 3300 lbs. was about 2:07 flat. Comfortable, all day long pace at 2:09. Track is faster now (and has a couple of more runoff areas) than when I ran that car from '99-'01.
Driver of the white GT3 was compromised as he was running slicks for 1.5 days, corded one, and reverted back to his Pilot Cups. Those were his first two laps out, and he was confused. Ultimately, he was doing about 2:03 the day before on the slicks.
The blue RS, it was his first track day with the car. I'm not sure if it's got different shocks; I think it's pretty stock at this point. Owner had a '75 Carrera 30+ years ago he drove for 300K miles, then took a break to raise his family. He got a kick out a ride with me just prior to the lap we videoed with his son in the car with me. Told me he was going over 2 sec/lap quicker after the ride.
Another data point was Excellence bringing an '11 GT2RS, bone stock, a few months ago. Van Overbeck got a 2:01 out of that car.
Front line Spec Miata is under 2:07. 2:09+ relegates you outside the Top 10 in a regional.
Thursday in that white "normal" GT3 which has Ohlins/regear/Yoko slicks/exhaust/etc., Johannes Van Overbeck did a mid-1:57, figured about 1 second off an ultimate lap.
My "class record" with the stock RSA (race shocks/400-600 springs/RS bars/245 & 275 Hoosiers/Pagid pads/2950 lbs w/ me, but otherwise 100% as delivered including a catalytic converter) I think still holds at 2:03.5.
Best I've done with the 993 on RA1s is 2:01.5. Mods too numerous to list, but it's got everything imaginable that you and do in a 3150 lb./320HP car.
My '92 C4 years ago on the old Kumho V700 225/255, Bilstein Euro RS street shocks, lowering springs, RS bars, Pagid pads @ 3300 lbs. was about 2:07 flat. Comfortable, all day long pace at 2:09. Track is faster now (and has a couple of more runoff areas) than when I ran that car from '99-'01.
Driver of the white GT3 was compromised as he was running slicks for 1.5 days, corded one, and reverted back to his Pilot Cups. Those were his first two laps out, and he was confused. Ultimately, he was doing about 2:03 the day before on the slicks.
The blue RS, it was his first track day with the car. I'm not sure if it's got different shocks; I think it's pretty stock at this point. Owner had a '75 Carrera 30+ years ago he drove for 300K miles, then took a break to raise his family. He got a kick out a ride with me just prior to the lap we videoed with his son in the car with me. Told me he was going over 2 sec/lap quicker after the ride.
Another data point was Excellence bringing an '11 GT2RS, bone stock, a few months ago. Van Overbeck got a 2:01 out of that car.
Front line Spec Miata is under 2:07. 2:09+ relegates you outside the Top 10 in a regional.
05-28-2011, 09:20 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by Amroth
933 is last air-cooled but not last handmade, as far as I know
I think that there is some debate about this. Also, it may be important to differentiate between handmade, hand built, and hand assembled. And there are infinite levels of degree with these terms (it's doubtful that Porsche raised cows for the leather seats, or mined ore for the metal components). But as far as I understand, the 993 was the first attempt to significantly cut the costs of production through the use of automation and prefabrication; so there was significantly more hand assembly done with the 964, than with the 993.
So I'm saying that the 964 was the last hand built (assembled) 911.
But to be fair, it should also be noted that hand assembly isn't always a good thing. The cost to build a 964 was notoriously high. This cost is largely passed along to the consumer. A 1990 C2 cost $60k new. I used an inflation calculator, and that translates to $103k in 2011. However, a 2011 Carrera only costs $78k! And for additional comparison, a 1998 C2 (993) only cost $63,750 new - barely more than the 1990 964, after 8 years! Also, for all of the benefits and attention to detail that comes from hand built cars, there are certainly quality issues that arise as well.
However, it was the 996, Boxster, Cayenne era that really ushered in the modern Kaizen (Toyota) production methods. According to Adrian, the 964 took 83 labor hours to build assemble. The 996 takes 5 hours! While there are plenty of design flaws, and component quality issues that have been noted in a 996, I believe that the production/assembly quality may have been quite good. Not sure about that, though.
So I'm saying that the 964 was the last hand built (assembled) 911.
But to be fair, it should also be noted that hand assembly isn't always a good thing. The cost to build a 964 was notoriously high. This cost is largely passed along to the consumer. A 1990 C2 cost $60k new. I used an inflation calculator, and that translates to $103k in 2011. However, a 2011 Carrera only costs $78k! And for additional comparison, a 1998 C2 (993) only cost $63,750 new - barely more than the 1990 964, after 8 years! Also, for all of the benefits and attention to detail that comes from hand built cars, there are certainly quality issues that arise as well.
However, it was the 996, Boxster, Cayenne era that really ushered in the modern Kaizen (Toyota) production methods. According to Adrian, the 964 took 83 labor hours to build assemble. The 996 takes 5 hours! While there are plenty of design flaws, and component quality issues that have been noted in a 996, I believe that the production/assembly quality may have been quite good. Not sure about that, though.
You said that hand assembly is not good for being not cost-effective, but you didn't mention any other reason, so what are the other cons of hand assembly?
About the 964 styling, it's starting to grow in me, before when I first saw it I was saying "what's this abonimation that porsche made?", now it's my favourite looking 911.
And it certainly looks better than a 993 and more classy.
I have a question though about the "reliability": how does a 964 reliability, being easy to maintain, and spare parts cost compared to a Boxster Spyder for example? Assuming that I'll do all the repairing to the engine and other parts of the car.
05-29-2011, 01:44 AM
#34
Rennlist Member
05-29-2011, 01:26 PM
#36
Burning Brakes
05-29-2011, 05:58 PM
#37
Racer
Thread Starter
what is almost standard? what mods have you done?
originally, my almost standard C4 (cup wheels, lowered springs, bad tyres) was really really bad. it was a few seconds slower than my almost standard 924.
a few simple mods and I've picked up 11 seconds on a short 1.30min track. still to go .. an easy 2-3 secs driver skill and 2-3 secs tyres.
originally, my almost standard C4 (cup wheels, lowered springs, bad tyres) was really really bad. it was a few seconds slower than my almost standard 924.
a few simple mods and I've picked up 11 seconds on a short 1.30min track. still to go .. an easy 2-3 secs driver skill and 2-3 secs tyres.
05-30-2011, 01:41 AM
#39
Rennlist Member
Funny thing is that it doesn't exactly take a lot to get what you've got to 90% of what I've got. The underlying platform is outstanding. Thing that trips everyone up is the arms race concerning power. Look what the GT3RS does to me on pure acceleration. Consider how you have to really be on your game to exploit that power deep into a braking zone, and carry the speed. Else some little lightly modified 964/993 will be right back up on your ***.
05-30-2011, 06:08 AM
#40
Nordschleife Master
I can see where you're coming from with this Tuscany. I too have an itch to try a GT3 and the Mk1 CS would also be my favourite....especially if it was guards red 
. However, you have to weigh up the extra consumable costs of running a GT3. Especially on track because they are much heavier on tyres and brakes which are more expensive to replace. It's noticeable over here that there are quite a few people that have got out of their GT3s and built track focussed 964C2s for both the lower running costs and that they can be driven much closer to the limit on track.
. However, you have to weigh up the extra consumable costs of running a GT3. Especially on track because they are much heavier on tyres and brakes which are more expensive to replace. It's noticeable over here that there are quite a few people that have got out of their GT3s and built track focussed 964C2s for both the lower running costs and that they can be driven much closer to the limit on track.
05-30-2011, 12:07 PM
#42
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I've wheel-to-wheel raced a 92 C4 as well as a 94 C4 for quite a few years until moving on to the 996 platform - neither C4 was as fun, as involving, or exciting to drive and as fun to work on (I do all the work myself) as my current 2002 996 C2 (non GT3 - operating costs are much lower for a C2 versus a GT3). And even in street form with M030 suspension the 996 was way more potent and involving than the prior 964 race cars were - can't beat technology! Many people harp on the newer cars - have you driven each enough to judge? Or worked on them - they're constructed beautifully - things like engine drops are a breeze on the 996! I'd never go back to the 964 as they just feel so old in many different ways - sorry guys! If Mr. Tuscany wants a non-daily driver track car, the GT3 would be a fantastic choice vs. the C4 - it's built for that job! 
05-30-2011, 12:18 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
Biggest thing that pisses me off with Porsche and the M96 engined cars is that they run until they don't run. And then they "don't run" in a big way. Suddenly. Granted, we can rebuild them now, but I'm one who really isn't into spending a bunch of money on cobbled together fixes that may or may not solve an inherent cheapness in the design.
05-30-2011, 06:22 PM
#44
Racer
Thread Starter
Funny thing is that it doesn't exactly take a lot to get what you've got to 90% of what I've got. The underlying platform is outstanding. Thing that trips everyone up is the arms race concerning power. Look what the GT3RS does to me on pure acceleration. Consider how you have to really be on your game to exploit that power deep into a braking zone, and carry the speed. Else some little lightly modified 964/993 will be right back up on your ***.
05-30-2011, 06:48 PM
#45
Racer
Thread Starter
I can see where you're coming from with this Tuscany. I too have an itch to try a GT3 and the Mk1 CS would also be my favourite....especially if it was guards red . However, you have to weigh up the extra consumable costs of running a GT3. Especially on track because they are much heavier on tyres and brakes which are more expensive to replace. It's noticeable over here that there are quite a few people that have got out of their GT3s and built track focussed 964C2s for both the lower running costs and that they can be driven much closer to the limit on track.
. However, you have to weigh up the extra consumable costs of running a GT3. Especially on track because they are much heavier on tyres and brakes which are more expensive to replace. It's noticeable over here that there are quite a few people that have got out of their GT3s and built track focussed 964C2s for both the lower running costs and that they can be driven much closer to the limit on track.A track focused C2 could be the answer but it is a big step because as I see it the money it takes to build a track focused c2 is 6 GT3 money and in any case, in the long run, a modded car is less valuable than an "original" GT3 if you were ever in the position to have to sell. That may be of less importance but in the position I am in (i.e. starting a relatively new business and having a young family) it is not completely irrelevant.
I have to admit that I recently have had the opportunity to try a 7GT3 on the ring and it was fantastic. Even though it wasn't mine and I didn't have nearly enough seat time to push it as I do the 964 the potential was enormous and is there for the taking. I was relieved to jump back into the '64 and really ring it's neck afterwards but that is just because I didn't want to take any risks in somebody elses car - and the ring is not exactly a "normal" track where you can take too many liberties.
Last edited by Tuscany964; 05-30-2011 at 07:09 PM.