Tuscany964

Well I have to admit this post comes as a big surprise and is of great help. I've considered you as one of the all time C4 fans and to read this just confirms my doubts about whether the C4 is right for me - no matter how good a car it is.

garrett376

I am still a great fan of the 964 C4 - no doubt about that - but your question asks about what seems to fit what you're looking to do. My point is if you have the money a 996 GT3 seems to provide what you're looking for without spending anything on development or modification which would result in a fairly unstreetable car (which I've done with two 964 C4's). A stock C4 for track duty versus a stock 996 GT3 is kind of like wearing hiking boots (C4) versus tennis shoes (GT3) to play a tennis match!

Wachuko

For non-daily driver track car... no question asked, if your wallet does not allow for a 997GT3, then go for the 996GT3. You still have the heart of a 964... so it is all good. Enjoy!!

blake

I was alerted of this thread from the guys on the 6GT3 board... As an owner of both a 964 (11 years) and a 6GT3 (5 years), I do have a bit of experience...

IMHO, the 964 is the most classic run of 911s. Why? Well, I want to own a '92 America Roadster (those hips!), a '94 3.6 Turbo (black/black like in "Bad Boys"), a '93 RSA (steering is sublime), a '92 USA Cup Car (what a track weapon), and of course a '94 Speedster (timeless look - though should have been a widebody!)...

Back in '06, I was looking for a track-only car and wanted either an RSA or a 964 Euro Cup.... (The US Cup was just too valuable even back then to track). From a looks perspective, I can't stand the 996. I actually ordered 1 in 2000 and couldn't buy it when it came into the dealership. Interior was cheap and plastic - a far cry from the 993 and previous craftsmanship... So in 2006, after spending many hours on Rennlist's GT3 board, I finally went for a test drive of the '6' at a dealership. OMG!!!!!! I was hooked, and bought one within 3 months after scouring the country for the right one... I actually test drove a stock 6GT3 and an RSA back to back, and it was no comparison. The hp of the 6 is intoxicating, and the rought idle and steerting feedback is sublime. Out of the box, it is a solid track weapon. Driving it on curvy roads was a blast - but driving it on the track was a blast times 10! Nirvana...

My advice is for you to make a list of what is important to you.... If you want a classic, fun, visceral ride - keep the 964 or find a better suited 964 variant. If you want more power and a more modern (but raw) driving experience, get the 6 GT3. But be advised - the 6 is more appropriate for the track. It is the most fun high in the rev band, a place that is tough to get to on the road (legally)...

And as a side - I looked very hard at the 7 GT3 as its looks are better and it has more hp (30hp). However, it lacks the raw feel of the 6 and had more electronic nannies. The 6 is just more engaging...

Good luck with your decision.

-B

Wachuko

That was a great post. I am a sucker for looks and the 7 GT3 just looks so much better inside and out... surprised to read that the 6GT3 is your drivers choice. Pretty cool read

Tuscany964

Hi Blake, thank you very much for your input you are confirming many of my thoughts. I love 964's and always will. My c4 for the road and a 6 GT3 for the track would be a perfect combo but I simply can't afford both. I also agree with you on the 6 vs 7 preference - even though the 7 GT3 is a great all rounder I can do without the added comfort and especially the electronics. As I stated before my GT3 of choice would be a (black) mk1 CS...
which may not be as high on my list of all time greats as a 964 RS but it's steadily creeping its way up.

Thank you all for the great replies!

911Jetta

Tuscany964,
In the days since you started thread I've taken my car on a couple "spirited" drives out in the country, each time thinking about this thread along the way at some point. After every drive I found myself sitting in the car in the garage for a couple minutes trying to do an honest assessment of what would have made the drive even better...

- Obviously better driving skills and refreshed suspension top the list.
- What about power...sure more would be better, but honestly the car pulls really well through 2nd and 3rd on the rolling countryside in my area. You know the speed this car hits in 3rd... There are more instances where I find myself having to erase speed to get back to semi-social levels.

One thing that kept coming to mind, is the size of a 964. This car is just the perfect size for the roads around my house. If the car was any wider (Turbo flares even), it would affect the way I drive the car on various sections of road. I've done a couple mountain drives with early-Turbo owners and you can see it when you follow them and it's a comment I always hear when we stop for gas. One of the slowest, "fast" cars I've ever driven behind was a Noble. That thing was so wide it was constantly over the yellow line through the turns...ugly driving! With the 964 I had lane room to spare and could set the car up nicely as I entered the turns and power out very early. Size is another weapon the 964 uses to it's advantage.

If I could daily drive on the roads in your area (that would be a dream), I would definitely stick with a 964. Fun thread with lots of great responses!

PS: routine track use? GT3!

(I'm not a big fan of the 996 styling, but this GT3 stopped me in my tracks a couple months back. It looked VERY special).

Tuscany964

Yup you've hit the nail on the head with the size issue, it is one of the main factors (along with build quality) why I love the NB '64 so much. In fact that is true about most vintage cars with respect to modern ones, just look at the original mini vs modern versions or old Fiat 500 vs new, 911 vs 997 or GTO vs 599 etc., etc. and the weight has also increased accordingly making the whole driving experience much less intimate.

However the 996 GT3 is still a reasonable size unlike the WB more recent RS's. I have driven a 7.1GT3 on "my" roads and it is a lot a fun and fully exploitable even if a bit on the edge - but that is more because of the stiffness of the suspension on imperfect roads rather than its size. The 964 is perfect for them but honestly both are way too fast to go home with a clean conscience if you start pushing. In fact I'll go so far as saying that unless the person in the GT3 is willing to take huge risks (for him and others) a GT3 is no faster than a well setup c4 here. But I will also say (and I'm risking getting banned here ;-)) that my "slightly" lightened but otherwise stock 1.8 Miata with a torsen and standard 185/60's is probably a more fun toy than both on these roads...

christallon

Tuscany,

I have enjoyed watching the progression of thoughts and considerations here since you posted initially a week or so ago. I can tell you that it appears clear, that you have made up your mind. You want a GT3, and I completely understand!!! When the fever hit me, it wasn't long before I had one in the garage. Fabulous machine! I truly appreciated it for everything that it is, a pure DRIVERS machine. I hope you get one and enjoy it thoroughly. If the fever passes, you can always get back into a 964 quite easily

All the best. The hunt is almost as much fun as that first, pure drive.

Tuscany964

Hi Chris,

thank you very much you have all been very helpful! I'm in no hurry. If and when I part with my 964 will be a sad day and it will only be because the GT3 bug has a serious bite. Wish I could have both it would make all this much easier. In any case you will all be the first to know if there are any developments.

Thanks again for all the great posts!

JR944

At risk of antagonizing the 964 faithful...... Are you kidding? It's a no-brainer. The GT3 is a superior car for fun twisty roads/track driving. If you can afford the difference in aquisition and running costs, just do it.

Perhaps some posters neglected to note that your car is a C4. Fabulous car, but hardly a great track tool.

I owned a '92 C2 and have recently helped two coaching clients purchase 964 C2 track cars. (one a very special and modified RSA arguably worth as much or more than my GT3) Those cars are great fun to drive and I really think the 964 is the "happy spot" in traditional 911's with reasonable suspension and transmission.

Unless forced financially, I would never go back from my GT3 to any 964 street/track car. (Though I would love to turn my 944S2 into a 964 race car)

Just another opinion from someone who has spent a LOT of time in both cars.
Joe

fishing

I would suspect you would encounter more problems with your 964 on the track. I have heard that the seals can fail as they are 20 years old. Repairs can be costly as the car ages. I love my 964 C2 Cab and fortunately plan to keep it a long time. I bought it in 1999. However, I have craved new technology over the years. I have never sold the 964 as I thought I would regret it. I don't know what I would do in your case, but I don't think you can go wrong with either choice. The GT3 would give you an awesome car that you could drive hard and track. If tracking is very important to you, then I would consider a 996 GT3 and maybe picking up a 964 some time in the future when the price bottoms out.

Carrera GT

Having tracked a 964 and a 996 GT3, I'd vote for the GT3 as the track car for a skilled driver and the 964 (really in 2WD, the 964 C4 drivetrain is nothing to write home about) as the vehicle in which to learn how one period or era of the 911 handled (warts and all.) I'd like to find a car to drive in GTL f'rinstance, just for the bang for the buck fun of it. Not necessarily a high dollar, front runner, just a competitive car to learn to race.
I can have a blast driving on the track in the 964 (and regret ever selling it) so there's no question that a nicely sorted 964 is all the fun, and these days, practical and good value for the money by track car standards with the given level of performance.
The 996 GT3 is a different machine. The long list of very expensive advantages would cost considerable dollars to equal if starting from the 964. Superior engine in terms of specific power output, power delivery, throttle response, character and the joy of such a wide power band with such a high rev-limit. Nearly 400 horses in a factory warrantied donk. Astonishing. The suspension, chassis strength, dynamics -- this was a car that in 2004 after all of us die-hard air-cooled 993 Turbo guys had resigned ourselves to end of the "real" 911's, the 2004 GT3 won us over, one by one. Still, give me the sound and the feel of the 993, especially for a fun, safe drive on the street, but when I want to drain the adrenal gland on the track, give me a Ducati 996 or a Porsche 996 GT3.
Of course, home no object, go get a 2011 RS 4.0, but who's dumb enough to track a US$200K street car?
Back to the 964 vs 996 GT3 comparison, I have no reservations in advocating the GT3 over a 964 C4, especially if the objective is to enjoy track driving.

race911

I still come back to this simple reality:

My RSA circa 2003--factory stock. Only things changed were the brake pads and fluid, properly valved shocks with 400/600 springs, RS stabilizer bars, Hoosiers on 7.5 + 9" rims, and the necessary safety equipment to race. Still had the catalytic converter. Weight, with me in the car was ~2950 lbs. Best time at Thunderhill (full track) was 2:03.5. And that's when the track was slower, before the repave and cheater extensions in a couple of turns. Total I had tied up in the car was about $20K.

The white GT3 (which I've been told is a .1 model) in the video I posted pages ago--new Yokohama slicks, regeared, aftermarket exhaust, Ohlins shocks with appropriate springs, etc. VanOverbeck was driving the car prior to the day in the video and got a mid 1:57.

6 seconds a lap IS light years. But I'm no pro driver. I still submit that the only fundamental difference between the generations that you'll find with us amateurs is acceleration. And most of that is scrubbed when you're not spot on taking the braking to the deepest limits everywhere. Cornering? I'll compare anyone's GT3 (of any generation) data with mine. (Or with the Spec Miata, which has even higher limits.)

Right now I'm working on a deal to transform a friend's 964 coupe into something track worthy. Maybe a whole 3.8/regeared trans drivetrain is going to fall into my lap to really sweeten the car. It will certainly be cosmetically challenged, but the total build on the car will be $18-19K. I fully expect this car to be just a tick slower than my faux 993RS. Mounting Hoosiers (or even slicks) I know I'll be flirting with cracking 2:00 at Thunderhill. So me in a cobbled together 964 within a couple of seconds of a pro driver in a heavily modified 997GT3 at 20% of the cost. The air cooleds still have life left in them.

boxsey911

So true....and to illustrate the point here's a video I recently came across of a 993 cup hunting down GT3s at Spa Francorchamps

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-rH82rs1ww