Tuscany964

I have always loved 964s and in particular the RS has been one of my favorite all time cars since the day it came out. My C4 is in great condition, has full leather interior, is well set up and the engine still pulls strong (reaches the rev limiter in 5th). In addition from next year it will technically become a classic car which means insurance and road tax will cost me almost nothing. It is my car and I have taken great care of it and gotten to know it very well in the past 3+ years, so it does have a lot going for it.

There are a few negative points though. First and foremost I feel like I am abusing it on the track. It is not a lightweight RS or clone but a wonderful C4 with lots of options - so it is heavy. Also it is almost 20 years old so by using it the way I do things are starting to fail. After this year's Spa and Nurburgring trip I've had to change a broken half shaft and cooling fan at 800 euros a pop. I am starting to fear much bigger bills in the future which will no doubt make it a keeper.

Also even though I don't suffer from understeer with my present setup and C4's can be amazingly quick on a track the weight and 4wd does not allow the same degree of adjustability as a lighter or more powerful 2wd - which does mean a bit more driver involvement.

I have never tried a 6 GT3 but have driven 7 GT3s on track and all I can say is WOW! Sharp as a scalpel. I don't care for electronic aids and straight line speed doesn't mean much to me (you get used to any amount of power) so a 6GT3 CS (possibly mk1) would be my 3 of choice. Yes the esthetic beauty, compactness and hand built feel of 964 is on another level but honestly there is not much wrong, if anything, with a GT3 (besides weight or looks?).

Both 964's and GT3's are quick enough to send you to jail... but luckily where I live that is not so much of an issue as in the US :-)

Thanks for all the replies so far.

christallon

Wait to pay the tax & license until you decide. Probably won't take more than a month or so.

Pochi.X

Isn't the 993 the last handmade air-cooled 911?

Andy Roe

Maybe something like this would be an interesting swap...964 trackday car

Amroth

933 is last air-cooled but not last handmade, as far as I know

ACSGP

It really depends on what you want it for.

I've driven the hills of Tuscany, and I can imagine the windows down in spring and autumn, with the smells of the countryside and the car wafting in.

Some very tight stuff, and you really have to go that much faster to enjoy the 996. The 964 must be magic.

Can't say much for the track (maybe get a track special?) but if you focus on preventive maintenance, this car will really outlive you.

RSAErick

I think that there is some debate about this. Also, it may be important to differentiate between handmade, hand built, and hand assembled. And there are infinite levels of degree with these terms (it's doubtful that Porsche raised cows for the leather seats, or mined ore for the metal components). But as far as I understand, the 993 was the first attempt to significantly cut the costs of production through the use of automation and prefabrication; so there was significantly more hand assembly done with the 964, than with the 993.

So I'm saying that the 964 was the last hand built (assembled) 911.

But to be fair, it should also be noted that hand assembly isn't always a good thing. The cost to build a 964 was notoriously high. This cost is largely passed along to the consumer. A 1990 C2 cost $60k new. I used an inflation calculator, and that translates to $103k in 2011. However, a 2011 Carrera only costs $78k! And for additional comparison, a 1998 C2 (993) only cost $63,750 new - barely more than the 1990 964, after 8 years! Also, for all of the benefits and attention to detail that comes from hand built cars, there are certainly quality issues that arise as well.

However, it was the 996, Boxster, Cayenne era that really ushered in the modern Kaizen (Toyota) production methods. According to Adrian, the 964 took 83 labor hours to build assemble. The 996 takes 5 hours! While there are plenty of design flaws, and component quality issues that have been noted in a 996, I believe that the production/assembly quality may have been quite good. Not sure about that, though.

race911

What's a GT3 get you? On the street, anyway. You can escalate the arms race, but my feeling is that once you get outside the 10:1 weight/HP ratio, you spend a LOT for diminishing returns.

Here are a couple of laps from yesterday, behind both a regular '10 997 GT3 and an RS. Neither car is stock. Well, nor is my faux 993RS, but we're turning times here slower than what I used to run the stock class RSA racer..............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX8cv...layer_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxWB4...layer_embedded

race911

And for further perspective, the GT3 video wouldn't have put us on the front row of an SCCA Regional Spec Miata race around here. The RS one would have. Barely.

RSAErick

Hi Ken, thanks for posting the videos. Those are a great perpective! I'm still not sure how much can be taken away from this, since the largest variable is driver. Still interesting to see the power of the RS on the straights... and the fact that you were all over their asses in the corners!

race911

Thanks. Point is that even at/near the limit, the differences are pretty small. Except for acceleration. But even then, you can only exploit it by going deep on braking. 964/993 suspensions are perfectly fine in keeping up, though they require a bit more skill. (Largest difference is that my car is marginal as a street car to get this performance. A 996....997.....99whateverisnext can corner like this, AND be a more-or-less cushy ride around town.)

Further perspective is taking a step back to the torsion bar cars that populate our Spec911 series. Can't run coil springs, weight is ~2400 w/ driver, ~250HP 3.0 engines, 225/245 Toyo RA1s. Lap record on this track is under 2:01. That's 5-7 seconds quicker than the videos. Van Overbeck was up with the owner of the white car Thursday, and on slicks only managed a mid-1:57. Pro driver, slicks, modified GT3........3 seconds a lap quicker than his dad in a ~30 year old trailing arm car on arguably street tires.

Tuscany964

Yes I've thought about this as well. My mechanic has a very well sorted RSA (not that RSA's attract me any more than any other c2) but it does have real RS suspension, brakes, roll bar, interior, hot film etc. and 6 spd 'box with lsd. Unfortunately it does have a sunroof but what the hell I can live with that. The only thing is that cost is comparable to a 6 GT3. The plus side is that if I want it does have the possibility of (legally) fitting rear seats so I could bring the little one along for the ride. And it would be pretty darn close to having a real RS in substance (except for the welding and engine/tranny mounts which I could easily do at some point).

sml

nice videos ...

a) what are the mods on a stock class RSA racer
b) what are the mods on the faux 993RS in the vids
b) what is the driver skill on the 997s compared to your skill

Tuscany964

Thanks for posting the videos Ken but they do illustrate 2 things. First my almost standard C4 handles nothing like your faux RS which seems a lot more fun. Second (and please correct me if I'm wrong) the guys driving the GT3's were not nearly as skilled as you otherwise they would have left you for dead. In the videos they brake much earlier and are much slower through the turns but still lose you on the straight bits. Have you tried lapping the same track in a 964/993 and GT3?

I can lose my buddies in GT3's on the Nurburgring but on normal tracks like Spa there was nothing I could do to keep up with them after they got the hang of it (they were driving 997.1 GT3 and latest 997 GT3).

As I say it's not the lap times or power I care about but your car just seems sooo much more involving and fun than mine that it just makes me wonder if my c4 is right for me.

P.S. - I also have a '96 1.8 Miata I've been using to enjoy the Tuscan roads top down which has much more realistic limits on the road than a 964 thanks to its 185/60's and am considering to prepare as a dedicated track car but I can't give up a serious Pcar for feel and tracks like Nurburgring, Spa, Mugello etc...

sml

what is almost standard? what mods have you done?

originally, my almost standard C4 (cup wheels, lowered springs, bad tyres) was really really bad. it was a few seconds slower than my almost standard 924.

a few simple mods and I've picked up 11 seconds on a short 1.30min track. still to go .. an easy 2-3 secs driver skill and 2-3 secs tyres.