964 Engine rebuild
12-17-2011, 05:26 AM
#91
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Thread Starter
Hi Alex, nice build!
I Have experience running DTA S40 and can vouch for the quality....DTA S80 would be more suitable for a 6 cilinder application than the S60 and costs around £950. I think Motec costs around £ 1500.
This however is only the start, you need a custom loom made up, larger injectors, a base map to get the car running ( without ruining it) and than do the mapping.....lots of it. WOT / max power is almost the easy part. Cold start, idle, temp compensation tables, transients etc....which takes loads of dyno/road mapping to get to a good level.
This is where it really pays off having someone who already went through the learning curve, has a custom loom lying on the shelve, has suitable base maps etc.
This is where the difference in price between the ECU's can be easily won back by saving time/not having to go through a learning curve. That is unless you take a hobby approach and are willing to spend your own time and go through the learning curve yourself, rather than paying someone else to do so.
I'd be happy with the 308 HP for now, put £6 a day in your non- smoking piggy bank and go for the 40 HP ECU package in 2.5 years time;-)
I Have experience running DTA S40 and can vouch for the quality....DTA S80 would be more suitable for a 6 cilinder application than the S60 and costs around £950. I think Motec costs around £ 1500.
This however is only the start, you need a custom loom made up, larger injectors, a base map to get the car running ( without ruining it) and than do the mapping.....lots of it. WOT / max power is almost the easy part. Cold start, idle, temp compensation tables, transients etc....which takes loads of dyno/road mapping to get to a good level.
This is where it really pays off having someone who already went through the learning curve, has a custom loom lying on the shelve, has suitable base maps etc.
This is where the difference in price between the ECU's can be easily won back by saving time/not having to go through a learning curve. That is unless you take a hobby approach and are willing to spend your own time and go through the learning curve yourself, rather than paying someone else to do so.
I'd be happy with the 308 HP for now, put £6 a day in your non- smoking piggy bank and go for the 40 HP ECU package in 2.5 years time;-)
If money was no object then it wiuld be nice to run a different ECU with ITB but the other thing that has to be considered is that this engine is in a 1985 chassis mated to a 915 gearbox so there are limiting factors.
Piggy bank idea is a winner though (I've got a Porsche shaped one in the kitchen)
12-17-2011, 04:57 PM
#93
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Alex, I hope you find the following helpful:
Bit of history first.
Around 10 years ago I traded under the name 930 Motorsport (hence the origin of the 9m brand name) and had been playing with Motec for around 2 years. This period pre-dated the 9m dyno, so to get power measurements I ran our cars 6 miles down the road to my friend Peter's place, ABG in nearby Runcorn. Peter had a Bosch FLA203 2wd dyno which he let me use whenever we needed it so as a result I had been a pretty regular caller there since 1990, testing race cars and subsequently developing future 9m products and upgrades.
One of our customers Adrian had introduced us to Motec when building his highly modified 964RS engine and our experience with that car gave us the hunch that the system would also offer a significant benefit running it on a standard engine. The opportunity to prove this came early in 2002 when a customer from Ireland gave me his Rubystone 964RS to play with. Over the course of a 2 week period I put around 200 miles on the car between Warrington and Runcorn, testing all sorts of intakes, injectors and tunes. The culmination of this work came on the last available day of testing when I finally nailed the output control for the resonance flap and laid down the power runs of the graphs below; the second graph overlayng run #35 with #39 represents the optimum resonance flap opening point at the crossover of the two lines. The moment that run appeared on the Bosch screen was probably the defining moment which launched myself and 9m onto the quest for understanding the performance requirements of the aircooled 911 engine.
So why the history lesson in relation to your car? Well, three of four years later Peter was 95% sure that he wanted sell the dyno in order to redevelop ABG. I was first on the list to buy but whilst he was still making up his mind I managed to find another identical machine on Ebay and bought that one instead. A year later he sold the dyno to Wayne at Chipwizards, hence the dyno curves above are from Wayne's dyno as well. Small world or what?
As for your engine being in a 3.2 Carrera, I have a 993 motor in the back of my '88 and have just fitted a new M84 Motec ecu to the stock engine (with 964 headers and 3.2 Silencer) and mapped the engine on 95 octane fuel. Dyno result at the bottom is my silver Carrera on the 9m Bosch/Dynostar dyno showing the before/after with Motec. In respect of your car, I doubt that you will have a problem running a significantly more powerful n/a engine through your 915 gearbox. Gearboxes are generally torque limited (rather than power) so even though the rating of the box is 285Nm this is around 50% of its actual ultimate load capabilty. Back in the day many people happily ran the SC box on the front of tweeked 3.3 turbo motors with 450-500Nm, hence you should be more than safe with your current engine even if it is further optimised.
Bit of history first.
Around 10 years ago I traded under the name 930 Motorsport (hence the origin of the 9m brand name) and had been playing with Motec for around 2 years. This period pre-dated the 9m dyno, so to get power measurements I ran our cars 6 miles down the road to my friend Peter's place, ABG in nearby Runcorn. Peter had a Bosch FLA203 2wd dyno which he let me use whenever we needed it so as a result I had been a pretty regular caller there since 1990, testing race cars and subsequently developing future 9m products and upgrades.
One of our customers Adrian had introduced us to Motec when building his highly modified 964RS engine and our experience with that car gave us the hunch that the system would also offer a significant benefit running it on a standard engine. The opportunity to prove this came early in 2002 when a customer from Ireland gave me his Rubystone 964RS to play with. Over the course of a 2 week period I put around 200 miles on the car between Warrington and Runcorn, testing all sorts of intakes, injectors and tunes. The culmination of this work came on the last available day of testing when I finally nailed the output control for the resonance flap and laid down the power runs of the graphs below; the second graph overlayng run #35 with #39 represents the optimum resonance flap opening point at the crossover of the two lines. The moment that run appeared on the Bosch screen was probably the defining moment which launched myself and 9m onto the quest for understanding the performance requirements of the aircooled 911 engine.
So why the history lesson in relation to your car? Well, three of four years later Peter was 95% sure that he wanted sell the dyno in order to redevelop ABG. I was first on the list to buy but whilst he was still making up his mind I managed to find another identical machine on Ebay and bought that one instead. A year later he sold the dyno to Wayne at Chipwizards, hence the dyno curves above are from Wayne's dyno as well. Small world or what?
As for your engine being in a 3.2 Carrera, I have a 993 motor in the back of my '88 and have just fitted a new M84 Motec ecu to the stock engine (with 964 headers and 3.2 Silencer) and mapped the engine on 95 octane fuel. Dyno result at the bottom is my silver Carrera on the 9m Bosch/Dynostar dyno showing the before/after with Motec. In respect of your car, I doubt that you will have a problem running a significantly more powerful n/a engine through your 915 gearbox. Gearboxes are generally torque limited (rather than power) so even though the rating of the box is 285Nm this is around 50% of its actual ultimate load capabilty. Back in the day many people happily ran the SC box on the front of tweeked 3.3 turbo motors with 450-500Nm, hence you should be more than safe with your current engine even if it is further optimised.
Last edited by NineMeister; 12-17-2011 at 05:13 PM.
12-19-2011, 04:07 AM
#95
Racer
Thread Starter
Alex, I hope you find the following helpful:
Bit of history first.
Around 10 years ago I traded under the name 930 Motorsport (hence the origin of the 9m brand name)
So why the history lesson in relation to your car? Well, three of four years later Peter was 95% sure that he wanted sell the dyno in order to redevelop ABG. I was first on the list to buy but whilst he was still making up his mind I managed to find another identical machine on Ebay and bought that one instead. A year later he sold the dyno to Wayne at Chipwizards, hence the dyno curves above are from Wayne's dyno as well. Small world or what?
.
Bit of history first.
Around 10 years ago I traded under the name 930 Motorsport (hence the origin of the 9m brand name)
So why the history lesson in relation to your car? Well, three of four years later Peter was 95% sure that he wanted sell the dyno in order to redevelop ABG. I was first on the list to buy but whilst he was still making up his mind I managed to find another identical machine on Ebay and bought that one instead. A year later he sold the dyno to Wayne at Chipwizards, hence the dyno curves above are from Wayne's dyno as well. Small world or what?
.
Thanks for the information - interesting stuff. The world actually gets slightly smaller as my car was looked after by 930 Sport for a large part of its life between 1993 and 2002. Come to thing of it I only actually got round to removing the sticker from the back window a few weeks ago!!
Alex, I hope you find the following helpful:
As for your engine being in a 3.2 Carrera, I have a 993 motor in the back of my '88 and have just fitted a new M84 Motec ecu to the stock engine (with 964 headers and 3.2 Silencer) and mapped the engine on 95 octane fuel. Dyno result at the bottom is my silver Carrera on the 9m Bosch/Dynostar dyno showing the before/after with Motec. In respect of your car, I doubt that you will have a problem running a significantly more powerful n/a engine through your 915 gearbox. Gearboxes are generally torque limited (rather than power) so even though the rating of the box is 285Nm this is around 50% of its actual ultimate load capabilty. Back in the day many people happily ran the SC box on the front of tweeked 3.3 turbo motors with 450-500Nm, hence you should be more than safe with your current engine even if it is further optimised.
As for your engine being in a 3.2 Carrera, I have a 993 motor in the back of my '88 and have just fitted a new M84 Motec ecu to the stock engine (with 964 headers and 3.2 Silencer) and mapped the engine on 95 octane fuel. Dyno result at the bottom is my silver Carrera on the 9m Bosch/Dynostar dyno showing the before/after with Motec. In respect of your car, I doubt that you will have a problem running a significantly more powerful n/a engine through your 915 gearbox. Gearboxes are generally torque limited (rather than power) so even though the rating of the box is 285Nm this is around 50% of its actual ultimate load capabilty. Back in the day many people happily ran the SC box on the front of tweeked 3.3 turbo motors with 450-500Nm, hence you should be more than safe with your current engine even if it is further optimised.
Thanks again for taking the time to give such a detailed answer.
12-19-2011, 05:46 AM
#96
Great result Alex, you will be looking for some new rear tyres soon I expect!
Colin I was wondering if there was a specific Motec feature that you utilise that other ECU's cant do that causes you recommend Motec over other systems? Or is it just that you have plenty of well refined Motec maps that give you a headstart?
I've recently reviewed specs of lots of ECU's and most of them do most stuff just in a slightly different way, is it possible to reveal the Motec secret feature without revealing your 9m Motec secret?
As for your engine being in a 3.2 Carrera, I have a 993 motor in the back of my '88 and have just fitted a new M84 Motec ecu to the stock engine (with 964 headers and 3.2 Silencer) and mapped the engine on 95 octane fuel. Dyno result at the bottom is my silver Carrera on the 9m Bosch/Dynostar dyno showing the before/after with Motec.
I've recently reviewed specs of lots of ECU's and most of them do most stuff just in a slightly different way, is it possible to reveal the Motec secret feature without revealing your 9m Motec secret?
12-19-2011, 10:16 AM
#97
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Colin I was wondering if there was a specific Motec feature that you utilise that other ECU's cant do that causes you recommend Motec over other systems? Or is it just that you have plenty of well refined Motec maps that give you a headstart?
I've recently reviewed specs of lots of ECU's and most of them do most stuff just in a slightly different way, is it possible to reveal the Motec secret feature without revealing your 9m Motec secret?
I've recently reviewed specs of lots of ECU's and most of them do most stuff just in a slightly different way, is it possible to reveal the Motec secret feature without revealing your 9m Motec secret?
The ecu is more than just a box which opens the fuel injectors and fires the spark depending on the engine rpm and load, the electronics within the box have a huge part to play in dictating the potential performance. The board architecture, chipset, firmware, processor, clock rate and operating software all have their influence, then add into the equation the accuracy of the engine sensors and the ability of the software algorithms to process the information and provide accurate signals as the engine accelerates. Out of all the ecus commercially available, an associate of ours tested and measured around 50 of the "best" systems that he could find. The Motec ecus were in the top few which he would actually consider using on a job.....
12-20-2011, 08:42 AM
#98
First of all I want to say that I do not want to hijack the thread away from Alex's engine, so I'll be brief with the proviso that if you want a lot more info we can move it over to a Motec specific thread.
The ecu is more than just a box which opens the fuel injectors and fires the spark depending on the engine rpm and load, the electronics within the box have a huge part to play in dictating the potential performance. The board architecture, chipset, firmware, processor, clock rate and operating software all have their influence, then add into the equation the accuracy of the engine sensors and the ability of the software algorithms to process the information and provide accurate signals as the engine accelerates. Out of all the ecus commercially available, an associate of ours tested and measured around 50 of the "best" systems that he could find. The Motec ecus were in the top few which he would actually consider using on a job.....
The ecu is more than just a box which opens the fuel injectors and fires the spark depending on the engine rpm and load, the electronics within the box have a huge part to play in dictating the potential performance. The board architecture, chipset, firmware, processor, clock rate and operating software all have their influence, then add into the equation the accuracy of the engine sensors and the ability of the software algorithms to process the information and provide accurate signals as the engine accelerates. Out of all the ecus commercially available, an associate of ours tested and measured around 50 of the "best" systems that he could find. The Motec ecus were in the top few which he would actually consider using on a job.....
I dont think Alex will mind us gatecrashing his thread, this is all good stuff.
12-20-2011, 09:41 AM
#99
Racer
Thread Starter
First of all I want to say that I do not want to hijack the thread away from Alex's engine, so I'll be brief with the proviso that if you want a lot more info we can move it over to a Motec specific thread.
The ecu is more than just a box which opens the fuel injectors and fires the spark depending on the engine rpm and load, the electronics within the box have a huge part to play in dictating the potential performance. The board architecture, chipset, firmware, processor, clock rate and operating software all have their influence, then add into the equation the accuracy of the engine sensors and the ability of the software algorithms to process the information and provide accurate signals as the engine accelerates. Out of all the ecus commercially available, an associate of ours tested and measured around 50 of the "best" systems that he could find. The Motec ecus were in the top few which he would actually consider using on a job.....
The ecu is more than just a box which opens the fuel injectors and fires the spark depending on the engine rpm and load, the electronics within the box have a huge part to play in dictating the potential performance. The board architecture, chipset, firmware, processor, clock rate and operating software all have their influence, then add into the equation the accuracy of the engine sensors and the ability of the software algorithms to process the information and provide accurate signals as the engine accelerates. Out of all the ecus commercially available, an associate of ours tested and measured around 50 of the "best" systems that he could find. The Motec ecus were in the top few which he would actually consider using on a job.....
12-20-2011, 10:01 AM
#100
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Whenever you're talking about motec, don't forget that it's not a shockabsorber or something like that.
You need to program it while it's:
cold, wet, dry, hot wet, cold dry. This with hot engine, cold engine, aso.
What I want to tell is, the costs are not the motec itself, but in the one, which will be your "friend" for a longer period.
I know of what I am talking, because I drove a lot of times my friends car while he was programming.
My personal experience:
I buy nothing, where there is no support to which I could go to within 2 hours driving time.
Otherwise I stay bone stock.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to stay away someone from more horsepower, but you really can loose time and money while beeing to positive.
If Colin is living close to you, just make a deal with him
Regards
Frank
12-21-2011, 09:00 AM
#101
Uuuuuhm, I don't think your summary accurately reflects the meaning of Colin's words.....
12-21-2011, 11:02 AM
#102
Had Colin said that he found the unique "fandango injector scaling" feature of Motec was the key to unlocking flat 6 engine power then perhaps I would start saving harder for a Motec system however based on Colins response this doesn't seem to be the case.
I appreciate Colins input and I'm certainly not a Motec basher - far from it, I just want to try an understand what it is about motec that floats 9m's boat so much. I have a spare 3.6 lump in my shed and having been playing with an Emerald system on another car I've decided I want to do the same/similar on the spare Porsche engine and looking for info to help decide on which system to use.
12-21-2011, 01:20 PM
#103
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OK, maybe I should have been more direct? There is a lot of crap in the marketplace: bad software, bad circuit board, bad firmware, or bad electronics - take your pick! My opinion (as shared by others) the new Motec M84 & the M800/M600 series ecus are in the top 10% of aftermarket engine management systems, they do everything I ask (and more), are reliable and affordable, so why look elsewhere?
In the past, every time I investigated cheaper systems I managed to programme them and get them to work, but even after spending two or three times the labour time sorting them out, I still could rarely get them running as well as a Motec package and customers were never happy at the cost of the work. In the end I made my the decision to stick with the Motec system so that I could offer fixed price conversions that I could guarantee the results from.
An example is my good friend Simon who has a supercharged 924 race car. I spent years with Simon on the Speed Championship circuit and was so sick of seeing him fail to start or run his car and have never ending problems with its performance that I forced him to let me fit a new Motec M4. He assembled his own Motec loom, I finished it off and got the engine running, then mapped the car from scratch on the dyno in around 4 hours. We found an extra 35hp immediately, the engine ran cooler and stronger. In the following 4 years the engine never, ever failed to start and he went on to break all his own personal track records in the car in all conditions.
Incidentally, his other ecu was fitted and mapped by its manufacturer......
In the past, every time I investigated cheaper systems I managed to programme them and get them to work, but even after spending two or three times the labour time sorting them out, I still could rarely get them running as well as a Motec package and customers were never happy at the cost of the work. In the end I made my the decision to stick with the Motec system so that I could offer fixed price conversions that I could guarantee the results from.
An example is my good friend Simon who has a supercharged 924 race car. I spent years with Simon on the Speed Championship circuit and was so sick of seeing him fail to start or run his car and have never ending problems with its performance that I forced him to let me fit a new Motec M4. He assembled his own Motec loom, I finished it off and got the engine running, then mapped the car from scratch on the dyno in around 4 hours. We found an extra 35hp immediately, the engine ran cooler and stronger. In the following 4 years the engine never, ever failed to start and he went on to break all his own personal track records in the car in all conditions.
Incidentally, his other ecu was fitted and mapped by its manufacturer......
12-21-2011, 05:06 PM
#104
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Hey, just remembered one of my non-Motec mapping experiences. Some years ago tuning an aftermarket ecu on a friend's turbo BMW 2.5 conversion I struggled to understand why I could not get the mixture perfect at idle. In spite of carefully tweeking the fuel table one point at a time from around 8 through to 9 in the table the engine still ran either hopelessly lean or suddenly rich. It was only after I 'scoped the injector signal that I realised the ecu had a hardware resolution of 1.0ms with a software resolution of 0.1ms, so when I was nudging from 8.0, 8.1, 8.2 the actual pulse width did not change until I got to 8.6, then stayed the same until 9.5 was reached. I spent two whole days on that car before refusing to touch it again.
Last edited by NineMeister; 12-21-2011 at 05:29 PM.
12-22-2011, 06:28 AM
#105