Potential New Induction System For America GS
03-04-2010, 09:11 AM
#1
Potential New Induction System For America GS
As part of the final work being done re the America GS, different induction systems are to be tested including an "air box". Attached are pictures of the test unit (on a test engine) which features dual resonance flaps with respect to which the Bosch ECU is being upgraded. Of course, should this unit help to achieve the gains being sought, the "production" component will be constructed in carbon fiber.
03-04-2010, 10:38 AM
#2
Nordschleife Master
When you build the one in carbon, you'll be able to mould in the transfer tubes for the vacuum lines from the ITBs and potentially connect up an idle control valve which will assist with idle stability.
03-04-2010, 11:28 PM
#3
I'm curious to know the longevity associated with carbon components, in and around the engine or any where temperatures become significantly elevated. For example, we use heat shields around the exhaust area of a helicopter that I'm fairly familiar with to protect the underlying composite structure. Certainly the construction, material and other manufacturing factors are sure to effect the structures resiliancy to heat..... I would assume. Thank you for the education.
03-06-2010, 03:50 PM
#4
The answer, as they say, depends. In this case, upon the design, the carbon/resin system used, the amount of such material, the method, tooling for and quality of manufacture and, of course, the environment to which the component is subject, including, but not limited to, how and how often it is handled.
In the case of the air boxes that Cartridge has supplied to Porsche AG for professional racing, for example: the design was focused not upon longevity but upon packaging, weight considerations (the boxes weighed approximately 1700 grams, approximately 4 lbs) and price, a carbon/resin system was used that can withstand approximately 170º C (approximately 338º F), the method of manufacture and the tooling was appropriate, particularly for the price point and the number of units being produced, the quality of manufacture was the best it could be at the price point and the environment in which race air boxes is used is extreme in every respect, e.g., temperature, vibration, shock and handling (race crews can be somewhat less delicate than ballerinas). Notwithstanding, the air boxes lasted for approximately 200 hard hours, approximately two seasons.
As to extending longevity in the case of an air box, this could be done. First, by adding a bit of weight in critical areas that are sensitive to vibration and shock (perhaps a total of another approximately 500 grams, 1.1 lbs). Second, if cost justified, enhancing others of the factors cited above including, possibly, going to another, more expensive, resin/carbon system which can withstand approximately 250º C (approximately 482º F). All of these materials lose strength/oxidize above certain temperatures and increasingly as the temperature rises. The 250 º C material should be more than adequate for longer term use given the ambient temperature of a Porsche engine compartment and the parts of the engine to which the air box are attached. In sum, with such changes and the fact that street cars generally operate cooler, vibrate less and are treated with somewhat more care, an air box should last for a reasonable service life of a street car, i.e., 100,000+ miles. As to cost, which, I suspect, is the next question, probably between $4000 and $4500 each in limited quantities.
Finally, should one be making valve (cam) covers, I would recommend the next step of a material rated for approximately 310º C (approximately 590º F) and in other cases such as, e.g., certain heat shields, there are systems that can withstand approximately 600º C (approximately 1112º F) for periods of time (i.e., perhaps 1000 hours) and blasts of even higher temperature for more limited periods.
Hope the foregoing is of some help.
bob
In the case of the air boxes that Cartridge has supplied to Porsche AG for professional racing, for example: the design was focused not upon longevity but upon packaging, weight considerations (the boxes weighed approximately 1700 grams, approximately 4 lbs) and price, a carbon/resin system was used that can withstand approximately 170º C (approximately 338º F), the method of manufacture and the tooling was appropriate, particularly for the price point and the number of units being produced, the quality of manufacture was the best it could be at the price point and the environment in which race air boxes is used is extreme in every respect, e.g., temperature, vibration, shock and handling (race crews can be somewhat less delicate than ballerinas). Notwithstanding, the air boxes lasted for approximately 200 hard hours, approximately two seasons.
As to extending longevity in the case of an air box, this could be done. First, by adding a bit of weight in critical areas that are sensitive to vibration and shock (perhaps a total of another approximately 500 grams, 1.1 lbs). Second, if cost justified, enhancing others of the factors cited above including, possibly, going to another, more expensive, resin/carbon system which can withstand approximately 250º C (approximately 482º F). All of these materials lose strength/oxidize above certain temperatures and increasingly as the temperature rises. The 250 º C material should be more than adequate for longer term use given the ambient temperature of a Porsche engine compartment and the parts of the engine to which the air box are attached. In sum, with such changes and the fact that street cars generally operate cooler, vibrate less and are treated with somewhat more care, an air box should last for a reasonable service life of a street car, i.e., 100,000+ miles. As to cost, which, I suspect, is the next question, probably between $4000 and $4500 each in limited quantities.
Finally, should one be making valve (cam) covers, I would recommend the next step of a material rated for approximately 310º C (approximately 590º F) and in other cases such as, e.g., certain heat shields, there are systems that can withstand approximately 600º C (approximately 1112º F) for periods of time (i.e., perhaps 1000 hours) and blasts of even higher temperature for more limited periods.
Hope the foregoing is of some help.
bob
03-07-2010, 12:13 AM
#5
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hey Robert, can I put in a claim for the prototype unit. I know you won't sell the CF final product.
I would just like to own a piece of Porsche/Cartridge history.
I would just like to own a piece of Porsche/Cartridge history.
03-07-2010, 12:49 AM
#6
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Marc
03-07-2010, 01:12 AM
#7
As everyone has come to know, Cartridge is not in the business of selling retail parts. With regard to the air box, there is yet to be any hard empirical evidence of its utility. Its value, if any, will be ascertained after dyno testing begins at the end of March. Assuming, however, that the engineers are correct and positive results are achieved, the question will be degree and cost vs. degree. Further, to achieve worthwhile results, including through the use of the dual resonance flap, might, depending upon which ECU one has currently, require either a reprogramming of the existing unit or an entirely new one such as, e.g., a Motec. This being the case, the cost of the induction package including the ECU modification/replacement might exceed $8000. Additionally, for an appropriate plug and play package, other parts and/or revised versions of existing parts might be required.
In any event, should success be achieved, it will be up to Porsche Motorsport to determine whether or not a "kit" will be made available for Type 964 and Type 993. Should the decision be in the affirmative, Cartridge would be happy to produce the induction components of a quality that I am confident will far exceed what is currently available in the aftermarket.
Finally, as to the prototype unit, it is just that, a handmade part which will be subject to further revisions as testing proceeds and, as such, not suited for release.
In any event, should success be achieved, it will be up to Porsche Motorsport to determine whether or not a "kit" will be made available for Type 964 and Type 993. Should the decision be in the affirmative, Cartridge would be happy to produce the induction components of a quality that I am confident will far exceed what is currently available in the aftermarket.
Finally, as to the prototype unit, it is just that, a handmade part which will be subject to further revisions as testing proceeds and, as such, not suited for release.
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03-07-2010, 01:19 AM
#8
Marc:
To a large extent, you are correct. The primary purpose of America GS was and is to test design, designers, materials, manufacturing processes and manufacturers for use in other applications. As such, initial cost has not been the primary driver. Further, it is far easier to throttle back than to scale up. The reference to price above was in relation to commercial parts produced for Porsche AG with respect to which price is and should be a very important factor.
To a large extent, you are correct. The primary purpose of America GS was and is to test design, designers, materials, manufacturing processes and manufacturers for use in other applications. As such, initial cost has not been the primary driver. Further, it is far easier to throttle back than to scale up. The reference to price above was in relation to commercial parts produced for Porsche AG with respect to which price is and should be a very important factor.
03-07-2010, 10:18 AM
#10
Robert, I just finished reviewing some of the previous threads on the GS so I believe I understand the purpose of this project, however what led you to select the GS as the tool by which to prototype from. Beyond the materials and your company's manufacturing and engineering capabilities, does the selection of the 964 limit in any ways the applicability of your creations (or knowledge gained from prototype development) to the application of today's more modern designs?
03-07-2010, 03:19 PM
#11
The reasons for using the America GS are several fold including the following three. First, and most simply, because I already owned it, thereby not necessitating additional expenditure for another vehicle. Second, because, in many ways, it presents even more engineering challenges than a more modern vehicle (e.g., translating the rear suspension into carbon fiber/aluminum/titanium was far more challenging and educational/informative than producing a lightweight version of a more modern configuration). Third, when completed (finally, by the end of this year barring any more unforeseen unrelated issues, distractions, difficulties), the improvements to a virtually twenty year old car (e.g., having a better power to weight ratio and higher quality components than, e.g., the Carrera GT, the new McLaren road car, etc., etc.) will make more of a statement.
