1993 RS America or 2004 GT3?
11-28-2009, 09:04 PM
#1
Pro
Thread Starter
1993 RS America or 2004 GT3?
RS America owners, how has your ownership experience been with your car?
Do you drive your RSA regularly?
Have you tracked the car? If so how has it performed?
What previous cars have you had?
I'm considering a 911 that I'll drive as a weekend fun car for touring and as an instructor car to drive for PCA DEs.
My first choice was a '93 RSA with locking diff and A/C as the only options. Auto Assets (OH) has a 61K miles Polar silver '93 RSA set up with a Guard locking diff; asking price is $45K.
There's a white GT3 in PA for $55K with 31K miles, minimally optioned with beige interior.
The RS America's values seem flat (assuming actual market trading is thousands of dollars less than advertised asking prices), while the 996 GT3 values will continue to decline, as newer versions of the GT3s are released.
I perceive from what I've read that the GT3 is more potent than the antiquated RS America, but I've read that the GT3 is missing much of the character and driver/machine connection the RS America has, and it takes more skill to drive the RS America rapidly compared with the GT3 (GT3 makes an average driver appear skilled).
I've been DE'ing since May 1997, and PCA-instructing since April 2001. I started track driving in a hot '93 FD Rx7 and had that car for 9 years and sold it after replacing its third motor. I went to a more reliable and practical car and have been in a 1997 BMW M3/4-door for 5 years. I keep my cars (until they break or it becomes unfeasible to keep them any longer).
I plan to keep the 4-door E36 M3 for daily driving (it's a solid and reliable car).
I don't want a maintenance headache, and the 911 I choose will get driven as the factory designed the car to be used.
Thanks!
Do you drive your RSA regularly?
Have you tracked the car? If so how has it performed?
What previous cars have you had?
I'm considering a 911 that I'll drive as a weekend fun car for touring and as an instructor car to drive for PCA DEs.
My first choice was a '93 RSA with locking diff and A/C as the only options. Auto Assets (OH) has a 61K miles Polar silver '93 RSA set up with a Guard locking diff; asking price is $45K.
There's a white GT3 in PA for $55K with 31K miles, minimally optioned with beige interior.
The RS America's values seem flat (assuming actual market trading is thousands of dollars less than advertised asking prices), while the 996 GT3 values will continue to decline, as newer versions of the GT3s are released.
I perceive from what I've read that the GT3 is more potent than the antiquated RS America, but I've read that the GT3 is missing much of the character and driver/machine connection the RS America has, and it takes more skill to drive the RS America rapidly compared with the GT3 (GT3 makes an average driver appear skilled).
I've been DE'ing since May 1997, and PCA-instructing since April 2001. I started track driving in a hot '93 FD Rx7 and had that car for 9 years and sold it after replacing its third motor. I went to a more reliable and practical car and have been in a 1997 BMW M3/4-door for 5 years. I keep my cars (until they break or it becomes unfeasible to keep them any longer).
I plan to keep the 4-door E36 M3 for daily driving (it's a solid and reliable car).
I don't want a maintenance headache, and the 911 I choose will get driven as the factory designed the car to be used.
Thanks!
Last edited by SleepRM3; 12-04-2009 at 07:32 PM.
11-28-2009, 10:31 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
Sounds like you've been on track enough to have seen it all, especially how the older cars related to the new stuff.
Wouldn't call a 964 chassis "antiquated" at all. Sure it uses semi-trailing arms, but equal on power/weight I'd be hard pressed to care if I were driving a developed torsion bar chassis, a 964, a 993, or a water cooled. ON THE TRACK. (Disclaimer: I have NO significant experience in water cooleds.)
First question I'll ask is how hard you drive a car. Say, in relation to lap records. I think that makes a huge difference in expectations. Using Thunderhill full track, times in my old stock class RSA club racer that was springs/shocks/bars/brake pads/Hoosiers/200lb weight removal from factory stock (still had the catalytic converter) from '01-'03 are within a couple of seconds of the FASTEST 996 GT3's I encounter presently at DE's. And I'm on pace with a LOT of others when I roll out the near stock RSA I have now, or the C4S that's 4-5 sec/lap slower than what I could do with the old racer. So it's extremely driver dependent.
To the point of the RSA you mention above, I guarantee you a stock car like that would be extremely unsatisfying on the track as-is in the hands of an experienced driver. But it doesn't take a fortune to make them come alive.
On the other hand, fortunes have been spent with the end result being absolute crap. I believe this is a friend's old car he used to club race. He thought it was great; I took it out of one session after all the work was done and pretty much pronounced it undrivable. Takes more than a name brand shop throwing a bunch of "race parts" on a car to make a car work on the track. And Hoosiers mask a lot........ (http://www.specialtysales.com/1994-p...ica-c-2388.htm)
Bottom line, sounds like your budget it $50K. Luckily I found the mother-of-all-993's a couple of years ago to join the fleet as a track rat. I'd look for similar that's out there for sale now, and has pedigree of PROPER assembly from a known quantity. Or find a $15Kish 964/993 coupe and take it from there if you're partial to air cooleds. But if you're not doing it yourself, you'll blow through $20-25K in maintenance/modifications/repairs yesterday.
I don't think the GT3's in stock form are "all that", but I'm in a minority. Maybe it fits your purposes just fine!
Wouldn't call a 964 chassis "antiquated" at all. Sure it uses semi-trailing arms, but equal on power/weight I'd be hard pressed to care if I were driving a developed torsion bar chassis, a 964, a 993, or a water cooled. ON THE TRACK. (Disclaimer: I have NO significant experience in water cooleds.)
First question I'll ask is how hard you drive a car. Say, in relation to lap records. I think that makes a huge difference in expectations. Using Thunderhill full track, times in my old stock class RSA club racer that was springs/shocks/bars/brake pads/Hoosiers/200lb weight removal from factory stock (still had the catalytic converter) from '01-'03 are within a couple of seconds of the FASTEST 996 GT3's I encounter presently at DE's. And I'm on pace with a LOT of others when I roll out the near stock RSA I have now, or the C4S that's 4-5 sec/lap slower than what I could do with the old racer. So it's extremely driver dependent.
To the point of the RSA you mention above, I guarantee you a stock car like that would be extremely unsatisfying on the track as-is in the hands of an experienced driver. But it doesn't take a fortune to make them come alive.
On the other hand, fortunes have been spent with the end result being absolute crap. I believe this is a friend's old car he used to club race. He thought it was great; I took it out of one session after all the work was done and pretty much pronounced it undrivable. Takes more than a name brand shop throwing a bunch of "race parts" on a car to make a car work on the track. And Hoosiers mask a lot........ (http://www.specialtysales.com/1994-p...ica-c-2388.htm)
Bottom line, sounds like your budget it $50K. Luckily I found the mother-of-all-993's a couple of years ago to join the fleet as a track rat. I'd look for similar that's out there for sale now, and has pedigree of PROPER assembly from a known quantity. Or find a $15Kish 964/993 coupe and take it from there if you're partial to air cooleds. But if you're not doing it yourself, you'll blow through $20-25K in maintenance/modifications/repairs yesterday.
I don't think the GT3's in stock form are "all that", but I'm in a minority. Maybe it fits your purposes just fine!
11-29-2009, 06:15 AM
#3
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
What can I say - I love the car. Search under my screen name in the 964 section and you'll see everything about my experience with the car since I bought it about a year ago.
I regularly track the RSA and it has been set-up for track use so I have no idea what a stock car feels like. I was looking for a pristine non-sunroof, non-A/C car with LSD - for a 964, the RSA is your only option then. I previously had a 993 C4S and was looking for a lighter, more nimble track oriented car.
What I like about the car is that it is very predictable at the limit which makes for a relaxing track experience - I'm not a racer and 8/10s is my limit. If the 6GT3 is anywhere like the 7GT3, it's going to be a lot more work on the track. My 7GT3 has already surprised me several times and I tend to be a lot more careful with it - maybe I just need more practice. Given that everything will be happening at higher speeds, my sense is that it will take more skill to get the most out of the 6GT3 in comparison to the RSA.
+ I love the sound of the air-cooled Porsches - enough said:
I regularly track the RSA and it has been set-up for track use so I have no idea what a stock car feels like. I was looking for a pristine non-sunroof, non-A/C car with LSD - for a 964, the RSA is your only option then. I previously had a 993 C4S and was looking for a lighter, more nimble track oriented car.
What I like about the car is that it is very predictable at the limit which makes for a relaxing track experience - I'm not a racer and 8/10s is my limit. If the 6GT3 is anywhere like the 7GT3, it's going to be a lot more work on the track. My 7GT3 has already surprised me several times and I tend to be a lot more careful with it - maybe I just need more practice. Given that everything will be happening at higher speeds, my sense is that it will take more skill to get the most out of the 6GT3 in comparison to the RSA.
+ I love the sound of the air-cooled Porsches - enough said:
11-29-2009, 11:33 AM
#4
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I love my RSA. It simply drives better the harder you push it. It rewards good driving and is very easy to manage at the limit. You also cannot find a better community than 964 owners.
The 996 and 997 GT3's are also very capable cars. I find them boring compared to the RSA.
The 996 and 997 GT3's are also very capable cars. I find them boring compared to the RSA.
11-29-2009, 01:29 PM
#5
I've owned many early cars (pre 73), an RSA, an 04 GT3 and now a 91 C2. All quite different from one another. I've always loved the early cars for their simplicity and lightness. My current 73 RS clone gives me a thrill every time I drive it hard, but it is ancient in a sense and does feel like a covered wagon compared to the more modern cars.
Now to your specific question:
The RSA was a lot of fun, but in stock form it just didn't compare to my early car in terms of high levels of performance and lightness. I also didn't care for the color (midnight blue metallic), so I sold it and bought the GT3. It was the best car I ever owned. The performance was staggering, and the modernity pushed all my buttons. I thought I'd finally found the Holy Grail, but as I drove it more often, I realized that it's limits are so high that the only place to really enjoy the car was at the track. Pushing the car to explore it's potential on the street was an exercise in frustration. I found myself at 125 MPH too many times on public roads without realizing it, and imagined I was destined for a stint in the Klink, so I sold it.
I spent many months reading posts on the 964 here on Rennlist, and went back and forth between the 964 and 993 platforms. As I love the early cars and the classic 911 line, I settled on a bone stock C2 in white. Although I have only been driven in nicely set-up 964, I realized that with a little effort and a few bucks the stock 964 is an ideal platform to build a very capable street ride that can be used on the track for a very satisfying cross over experience. I've been collecting the various performance parts for 6 months now, and will eventually transform the car to it's intended performance standard.
Although I miss the GT3 occasionally, I now know that the car for me is the 964 because it more closely resembles the early cars I so truly appreciate, and add to that platform creature comforts and drivability standards I find I desire. The 964 is also a more user friendly machine when it comes to maintenance and cost.
Good luck with your decision making.....
Oh and BTW, the GT3 you posted is probably more like the mid to high $40's and the RSA the mid to high $30"s
Now to your specific question:
The RSA was a lot of fun, but in stock form it just didn't compare to my early car in terms of high levels of performance and lightness. I also didn't care for the color (midnight blue metallic), so I sold it and bought the GT3. It was the best car I ever owned. The performance was staggering, and the modernity pushed all my buttons. I thought I'd finally found the Holy Grail, but as I drove it more often, I realized that it's limits are so high that the only place to really enjoy the car was at the track. Pushing the car to explore it's potential on the street was an exercise in frustration. I found myself at 125 MPH too many times on public roads without realizing it, and imagined I was destined for a stint in the Klink, so I sold it.
I spent many months reading posts on the 964 here on Rennlist, and went back and forth between the 964 and 993 platforms. As I love the early cars and the classic 911 line, I settled on a bone stock C2 in white. Although I have only been driven in nicely set-up 964, I realized that with a little effort and a few bucks the stock 964 is an ideal platform to build a very capable street ride that can be used on the track for a very satisfying cross over experience. I've been collecting the various performance parts for 6 months now, and will eventually transform the car to it's intended performance standard.
Although I miss the GT3 occasionally, I now know that the car for me is the 964 because it more closely resembles the early cars I so truly appreciate, and add to that platform creature comforts and drivability standards I find I desire. The 964 is also a more user friendly machine when it comes to maintenance and cost.
Good luck with your decision making.....
Oh and BTW, the GT3 you posted is probably more like the mid to high $40's and the RSA the mid to high $30"s
12-04-2009, 10:59 AM
#6
Pro
Thread Starter
I've owned many early cars (pre 73), an RSA, an 04 GT3 and now a 91 C2. All quite different from one another. I've always loved the early cars for their simplicity and lightness. My current 73 RS clone gives me a thrill every time I drive it hard, but it is ancient in a sense and does feel like a covered wagon compared to the more modern cars.
Now to your specific question:
The RSA was a lot of fun, but in stock form it just didn't compare to my early car in terms of high levels of performance and lightness. I also didn't care for the color (midnight blue metallic), so I sold it and bought the GT3. It was the best car I ever owned. The performance was staggering, and the modernity pushed all my buttons. I thought I'd finally found the Holy Grail, but as I drove it more often, I realized that it's limits are so high that the only place to really enjoy the car was at the track. Pushing the car to explore it's potential on the street was an exercise in frustration. I found myself at 125 MPH too many times on public roads without realizing it, and imagined I was destined for a stint in the Klink, so I sold it.
I spent many months reading posts on the 964 here on Rennlist, and went back and forth between the 964 and 993 platforms. As I love the early cars and the classic 911 line, I settled on a bone stock C2 in white. Although I have only been driven in nicely set-up 964, I realized that with a little effort and a few bucks the stock 964 is an ideal platform to build a very capable street ride that can be used on the track for a very satisfying cross over experience. I've been collecting the various performance parts for 6 months now, and will eventually transform the car to it's intended performance standard.
Although I miss the GT3 occasionally, I now know that the car for me is the 964 because it more closely resembles the early cars I so truly appreciate, and add to that platform creature comforts and drivability standards I find I desire. The 964 is also a more user friendly machine when it comes to maintenance and cost.
Good luck with your decision making.....
Oh and BTW, the GT3 you posted is probably more like the mid to high $40's and the RSA the mid to high $30"s
Now to your specific question:
The RSA was a lot of fun, but in stock form it just didn't compare to my early car in terms of high levels of performance and lightness. I also didn't care for the color (midnight blue metallic), so I sold it and bought the GT3. It was the best car I ever owned. The performance was staggering, and the modernity pushed all my buttons. I thought I'd finally found the Holy Grail, but as I drove it more often, I realized that it's limits are so high that the only place to really enjoy the car was at the track. Pushing the car to explore it's potential on the street was an exercise in frustration. I found myself at 125 MPH too many times on public roads without realizing it, and imagined I was destined for a stint in the Klink, so I sold it.
I spent many months reading posts on the 964 here on Rennlist, and went back and forth between the 964 and 993 platforms. As I love the early cars and the classic 911 line, I settled on a bone stock C2 in white. Although I have only been driven in nicely set-up 964, I realized that with a little effort and a few bucks the stock 964 is an ideal platform to build a very capable street ride that can be used on the track for a very satisfying cross over experience. I've been collecting the various performance parts for 6 months now, and will eventually transform the car to it's intended performance standard.
Although I miss the GT3 occasionally, I now know that the car for me is the 964 because it more closely resembles the early cars I so truly appreciate, and add to that platform creature comforts and drivability standards I find I desire. The 964 is also a more user friendly machine when it comes to maintenance and cost.
Good luck with your decision making.....
Oh and BTW, the GT3 you posted is probably more like the mid to high $40's and the RSA the mid to high $30"s
Last edited by SleepRM3; 12-05-2009 at 09:30 AM.
12-04-2009, 11:36 AM
#7
Rennlist Member
If you decide on a 964 IMO a lower miles RSA while very capable and fun is a better garage piece than track car. For less money you can create (or buy) an even more capable and fun 964.
In other words you are paying a distinct premium for an RSA that is more about its relative exclusivity than its objective performance gains vs. regular C2. Still, that may be important to you- if it is, go for it.
Remember though- the first time you have even a relatively minor shunt in the RSA, that premium could eviscerate.
In other words you are paying a distinct premium for an RSA that is more about its relative exclusivity than its objective performance gains vs. regular C2. Still, that may be important to you- if it is, go for it.
Remember though- the first time you have even a relatively minor shunt in the RSA, that premium could eviscerate.
Trending Topics
12-04-2009, 01:28 PM
#8
SleepRM3
I knew you'de be back
. I've been lurking over on the GT3 forum and have been watching your decision making process at work. The GT3 is an awesome platform, no doubt, but take it from one who knows.....It will be EXPENSIVE!!! especially on track.
The C2 option over the RSA is an extremely sound choice, if you choose it. Very easy to extract the performance level you want, and for at least $12K less than an equal RSA. The RSA makes a great street car used to maintain it's intrinsic value as a collectible piece. The C2 is a cheap platform to build up your dream car from, and way less expensive to maintain than the GT3, and as enjoyable at way lower speeds. It feels fast at slower speeds!!!
I knew you'de be back
. I've been lurking over on the GT3 forum and have been watching your decision making process at work. The GT3 is an awesome platform, no doubt, but take it from one who knows.....It will be EXPENSIVE!!! especially on track.The C2 option over the RSA is an extremely sound choice, if you choose it. Very easy to extract the performance level you want, and for at least $12K less than an equal RSA. The RSA makes a great street car used to maintain it's intrinsic value as a collectible piece. The C2 is a cheap platform to build up your dream car from, and way less expensive to maintain than the GT3, and as enjoyable at way lower speeds. It feels fast at slower speeds!!!
12-04-2009, 01:42 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
Intrinsic value in one because.........well, after almost 20 years of dealing with the things, I'm not exactly sure. Some of us have RS Americas that are nothing more than a chassis-in-waiting to be made into a race car/track rat. I seriously tried to sell mine 3 years ago when I had a great opportunity on a purpose built racer (wife said something had to go, bank account didn't). But no takers at basically $20K. Seems the typical buyer out there wants one of the low mileage or fully prepared ones for the price I was selling an honest, cosmetically unblemished high miler. Would a potential buyer have $30K+ in the car when it's all said and done? Sure. But you'd have a car that had been fully freshened to YOUR specs. (See my prior post about the car that has all the right stuff, but is an unsorted mess.)
So mine sits, with no real purpose in life. I could go out in the garage and find it stolen, and I'd probably be happier to get a check for whatever the value is from the insurance company.
So mine sits, with no real purpose in life. I could go out in the garage and find it stolen, and I'd probably be happier to get a check for whatever the value is from the insurance company.
12-05-2009, 09:28 AM
#10
Pro
Thread Starter
Intrinsic value in one because.........well, after almost 20 years of dealing with the things, I'm not exactly sure. Some of us have RS Americas that are nothing more than a chassis-in-waiting to be made into a race car/track rat. I seriously tried to sell mine 3 years ago when I had a great opportunity on a purpose built racer (wife said something had to go, bank account didn't). But no takers at basically $20K. Seems the typical buyer out there wants one of the low mileage or fully prepared ones for the price I was selling an honest, cosmetically unblemished high miler. Would a potential buyer have $30K+ in the car when it's all said and done? Sure. But you'd have a car that had been fully freshened to YOUR specs. (See my prior post about the car that has all the right stuff, but is an unsorted mess.)
So mine sits, with no real purpose in life. I could go out in the garage and find it stolen, and I'd probably be happier to get a check for whatever the value is from the insurance company.
So mine sits, with no real purpose in life. I could go out in the garage and find it stolen, and I'd probably be happier to get a check for whatever the value is from the insurance company.
If you decide on a 964 IMO a lower miles RSA while very capable and fun is a better garage piece than track car. For less money you can create (or buy) an even more capable and fun 964.
In other words you are paying a distinct premium for an RSA that is more about its relative exclusivity than its objective performance gains vs. regular C2. Still, that may be important to you- if it is, go for it.
Remember though- the first time you have even a relatively minor shunt in the RSA, that premium could eviscerate.
In other words you are paying a distinct premium for an RSA that is more about its relative exclusivity than its objective performance gains vs. regular C2. Still, that may be important to you- if it is, go for it.
Remember though- the first time you have even a relatively minor shunt in the RSA, that premium could eviscerate.
SleepRM3
I knew you'de be back. I've been lurking over on the GT3 forum and have been watching your decision making process at work. The GT3 is an awesome platform, no doubt, but take it from one who knows.....It will be EXPENSIVE!!! especially on track.
The C2 option over the RSA is an extremely sound choice, if you choose it. Very easy to extract the performance level you want, and for at least $12K less than an equal RSA. The RSA makes a great street car used to maintain it's intrinsic value as a collectible piece. The C2 is a cheap platform to build up your dream car from, and way less expensive to maintain than the GT3, and as enjoyable at way lower speeds. It feels fast at slower speeds!!!
I knew you'de be back
. I've been lurking over on the GT3 forum and have been watching your decision making process at work. The GT3 is an awesome platform, no doubt, but take it from one who knows.....It will be EXPENSIVE!!! especially on track.The C2 option over the RSA is an extremely sound choice, if you choose it. Very easy to extract the performance level you want, and for at least $12K less than an equal RSA. The RSA makes a great street car used to maintain it's intrinsic value as a collectible piece. The C2 is a cheap platform to build up your dream car from, and way less expensive to maintain than the GT3, and as enjoyable at way lower speeds. It feels fast at slower speeds!!!
You made excellent arguments between the C2 vs RSA.
Hanging out on the 996 GT3 forum has opened my eyes to the real cost of caring for the "beast". https://rennlist.com/forums/996-gt2-...ty-of-gt3.html
Last edited by SleepRM3; 12-05-2009 at 11:37 AM.
02-05-2012, 12:57 PM
#11
Pro
Thread Starter
Back from the dead. Picked up a DE-prepped '88 Carrera for the track Nov. 2010, and love it! Still have the '97 4-door M3 for daily use. I'm looking at this '94 RSA in Tacoma WA. http://www.bmwnorthwest.com/VehicleD...-WA/1682945853 The car's 2250 miles from me. Anyone nearby BMW Northwest willing to give this car a walk-around and test drive for me? What do you think of the price? I think it's high for the mileage, and modified appearance (lowered suspension and 993 Cup wheels)?
02-05-2012, 01:32 PM
#12
Drifting
I considered purchasing that particular car but found something else before I could fly out and see it. I am suprised it's still available, I think the price is attractive, the only downside to me is the sunroof, the wheels are easy to fix. The 964 market has gotten stronger over the last few years, it is not easy to find a good straight C2.
Phil
Phil
02-05-2012, 01:35 PM
#13
Pro
Thread Starter
I considered purchasing that particular car but found something else before I could fly out and see it. I am suprised it's still available, I think the price is attractive, the only downside to me is the sunroof, the wheels are easy to fix. The 964 market has gotten stronger over the last few years, it is not easy to find a good straight C2.
Phil
Phil
02-05-2012, 01:57 PM
#14
Intermediate
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: McAllen, TX
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Suggest you visit rsamerica.net. Lots of RSA info and a great marketplace. Lots of cars to choose from. I watched the site for months before springing for my '87 Ruf Tribute.
Good Luck
Russ
Good Luck
Russ
