Enhancements vs. Molestation
11-26-2009, 11:20 AM
#16
Instructor
Thread Starter
And you're the man when it comes to the latter. I am giving some thought to driving this car at a track day now and then. The suspension recipes you gave Tim Morris at German Master Tech for my '73 911S and '67 911 Rally car give me incredible handling in those cars. Now that they're worth more than I'd be comfortable leaving at the track (...if you can't afford to leave it at the track, don't take it to the track...) I'm thinking that the 964 might be a good one for that purpose. I'm have Tim contact you to get your ideas.
Cheers,
JohnA
11-26-2009, 01:32 PM
#17
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John,
I'm interested in following your car's progress. We purchased our 1991 C2 this past February, and have done little except sort out existing mechanical issues. My plan was to focus on the issues effecting an 18 year old car, while learning about the subtle upgrades both cosmetic as well as performance. FWIW, I'm starting to educate myself on suspension options (lowering), and the costs associated with them. I may follow that with some exhaust\intake upgrades, but nothing extravagant. We enjoy the car immensely in it's stock form, so taking modifications slow isn't a difficult endeavor.
Good Luck, and please keep us posted.
I'm interested in following your car's progress. We purchased our 1991 C2 this past February, and have done little except sort out existing mechanical issues. My plan was to focus on the issues effecting an 18 year old car, while learning about the subtle upgrades both cosmetic as well as performance. FWIW, I'm starting to educate myself on suspension options (lowering), and the costs associated with them. I may follow that with some exhaust\intake upgrades, but nothing extravagant. We enjoy the car immensely in it's stock form, so taking modifications slow isn't a difficult endeavor.
Good Luck, and please keep us posted.
11-26-2009, 02:54 PM
#18
Instructor
Thread Starter
Here's where I am at the moment:
Cosmetic
Interior
Seats
The interior of my car, like everything else, is bone stock. It's in perfect condition other than the seats. They are a bit scruffy and dried out. I thought about reconditioning them, but I just don't care for the gray on gray (the exterior is Slate Gray). And I don't like the leather fronts with vinyl backs. I stumbled across a pair of '87 Turbo all leather black seats in mint condition and I am installing them in the car. A bonus is that they are full comfort seats with the four adjustments.
Steering Wheel
IMO the black seats look great as there is a lot of black trim in the interior. But they kind of call for a black steering wheel. I really like after-market sport wheels for their looks and smaller size. But after exploring alternatives I decided to stay with the stock wheel. Again, the originality thing - and I also like having an airbag.
Exterior
Mirrors
Like everyone else I really don't like the looks of the barndoor mirrors. But I do like the originality and I also like their functionality. Their humongous size gives great views of what is behind you. But the Aero's look *so" much better that I will probably fold at some point.
Rear Reflector Panel
I splurged and replaced the typically warped and faded rear panel. Expensive but worth it to me. I spent a lot of time using my paint detailing recipe and it has really come to life - almost perfect really.
Wheels
The car has the original wheels with new snow tires and I'm going to drive it that way over the winter, which can get pretty wintry here in Central Oregon. But I'm looking for a set of Cup wheels for summer driving. I like having two sets and I do prefer the looks of the Cup wheels (although I don't hate the looks of the D90's like most people seem to).
Headlights
This is more functional than cosmetic, but I'm probably going to replace the stock H5's with H4's I have a set on hand and my old eyes need all the light that I can get, especially with all the deer here in Central Oregon.
Performance
I'm still doing research in this area. But I have decided on a few things.
Chip
After a lot of research I decided to order a Steve Wong chip (despite Loren's strong opinion that they are worthless).
Airbox
I drilled seven 1" holes in the airbox cover and, while I do have a fertile imagination, I swear the car sounds better, the throttle response is more immediate, and the idle is smoother.
Mufflers, Cats & Bypasses
As I srtated previously, I know just enough to be dangerous here. My goals would be to enhance the sound without bcoming obnoxious and to increase performance. Still gathering information on the pro's and cons of g-pipes, cat bypasses and the like.
Engine Tray
As I mentioned in another post, I researched this controversial topic extensively when I owned a 993 and I came down on the side of leaving it installed. I found one for this car and will be installing it.
Suspension
Ah, this is the big one. The most enjoyment I get from these cars is in the twisties. I've driven mostly early 911's, and my main hottie is a SWB, so I have become really accustomed to oversteer. While I'm not a great driver by any means, I'm used to respecting it - and to using it to my advantage with throttle steering and the like. I will proceed slowly here defering to experts like Steve at Rennsport and my main mechanic, Tim Morris here in Bend.
Cheers,
JohnA
Cosmetic
Interior
Seats
The interior of my car, like everything else, is bone stock. It's in perfect condition other than the seats. They are a bit scruffy and dried out. I thought about reconditioning them, but I just don't care for the gray on gray (the exterior is Slate Gray). And I don't like the leather fronts with vinyl backs. I stumbled across a pair of '87 Turbo all leather black seats in mint condition and I am installing them in the car. A bonus is that they are full comfort seats with the four adjustments.
Steering Wheel
IMO the black seats look great as there is a lot of black trim in the interior. But they kind of call for a black steering wheel. I really like after-market sport wheels for their looks and smaller size. But after exploring alternatives I decided to stay with the stock wheel. Again, the originality thing - and I also like having an airbag.
Exterior
Mirrors
Like everyone else I really don't like the looks of the barndoor mirrors. But I do like the originality and I also like their functionality. Their humongous size gives great views of what is behind you. But the Aero's look *so" much better that I will probably fold at some point.
Rear Reflector Panel
I splurged and replaced the typically warped and faded rear panel. Expensive but worth it to me. I spent a lot of time using my paint detailing recipe and it has really come to life - almost perfect really.
Wheels
The car has the original wheels with new snow tires and I'm going to drive it that way over the winter, which can get pretty wintry here in Central Oregon. But I'm looking for a set of Cup wheels for summer driving. I like having two sets and I do prefer the looks of the Cup wheels (although I don't hate the looks of the D90's like most people seem to).
Headlights
This is more functional than cosmetic, but I'm probably going to replace the stock H5's with H4's I have a set on hand and my old eyes need all the light that I can get, especially with all the deer here in Central Oregon.
Performance
I'm still doing research in this area. But I have decided on a few things.
Chip
After a lot of research I decided to order a Steve Wong chip (despite Loren's strong opinion that they are worthless).
Airbox
I drilled seven 1" holes in the airbox cover and, while I do have a fertile imagination, I swear the car sounds better, the throttle response is more immediate, and the idle is smoother.
Mufflers, Cats & Bypasses
As I srtated previously, I know just enough to be dangerous here. My goals would be to enhance the sound without bcoming obnoxious and to increase performance. Still gathering information on the pro's and cons of g-pipes, cat bypasses and the like.
Engine Tray
As I mentioned in another post, I researched this controversial topic extensively when I owned a 993 and I came down on the side of leaving it installed. I found one for this car and will be installing it.
Suspension
Ah, this is the big one. The most enjoyment I get from these cars is in the twisties. I've driven mostly early 911's, and my main hottie is a SWB, so I have become really accustomed to oversteer. While I'm not a great driver by any means, I'm used to respecting it - and to using it to my advantage with throttle steering and the like. I will proceed slowly here defering to experts like Steve at Rennsport and my main mechanic, Tim Morris here in Bend.
Cheers,
JohnA
11-26-2009, 03:26 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
Here's where I am at the moment:
Cosmetic
Interior
Steering Wheel
IMO the black seats look great as there is a lot of black trim in the interior. But they kind of call for a black steering wheel. I really like after-market sport wheels for their looks and smaller size. But after exploring alternatives I decided to stay with the stock wheel. Again, the originality thing - and I also like having an airbag.
Cheers,
JohnA
Cosmetic
Interior
Steering Wheel
IMO the black seats look great as there is a lot of black trim in the interior. But they kind of call for a black steering wheel. I really like after-market sport wheels for their looks and smaller size. But after exploring alternatives I decided to stay with the stock wheel. Again, the originality thing - and I also like having an airbag.
Cheers,
JohnA
I can't believe we've gone this long without nobody mentioning posting pics of your car. As the saying goes: this thread is worthless without pics!!
Enjoy the miles. 
11-27-2009, 12:16 AM
#21
Gorgeous color! Like many others said, I would make sure it's mechanically sound and then do suspension. After that, tweak to your hearts content. I would do wheels before mirrors.
11-27-2009, 02:18 AM
#23
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[QUOTE=h2ono;7099593]
"Those of us involved in restoring those early cars have *no* respect for the folks who did the messin' up.
964's are pretty special csrs and I'm old enough to realize that I'm more of a temporary custodian than an "owner". Probsbly just an age thing. Anyway, I'm also old enough to not worry about being cool, so I don't mind doing things that are not "approved of" by the majority here - or anywhere else. But I would like to do things that improve the car in a way consistent with the excellence that defines Porsches.
(...if you can't afford to leave it at the track, don't take it to the track...) I'm thinking that the 964 might be a good one for that purpose."
That's a quick change of heart. I like your latter thoughts. Drive it out, and enjoy. The Europeans have it right. Drive these cars. Use them up. Preserve art and architecture.
"Those of us involved in restoring those early cars have *no* respect for the folks who did the messin' up.
964's are pretty special csrs and I'm old enough to realize that I'm more of a temporary custodian than an "owner". Probsbly just an age thing. Anyway, I'm also old enough to not worry about being cool, so I don't mind doing things that are not "approved of" by the majority here - or anywhere else. But I would like to do things that improve the car in a way consistent with the excellence that defines Porsches.
(...if you can't afford to leave it at the track, don't take it to the track...) I'm thinking that the 964 might be a good one for that purpose."
That's a quick change of heart. I like your latter thoughts. Drive it out, and enjoy. The Europeans have it right. Drive these cars. Use them up. Preserve art and architecture.
11-27-2009, 10:14 AM
#24
Instructor
Thread Starter
Well, there's messin' up and then there's messin' up.
To take a well thought out machine and mangle it with stupid mods is one thing. To mangle it at the track, doing what it was designed for, is another. You gotta drive 'em hard!
Part of my signature at the Early 911S Registry Forum is "Building Them to #1; Driving Them to #2". One of the great things about 964's is that people *use* them. A lot of collector cars sit in the garage. When I 'm done restoring a car I spend some time looking at it and taking pictures as I know that's the best it will ever look - the driving starts the next day.
Cheers,
JohnA
To take a well thought out machine and mangle it with stupid mods is one thing. To mangle it at the track, doing what it was designed for, is another. You gotta drive 'em hard!
Part of my signature at the Early 911S Registry Forum is "Building Them to #1; Driving Them to #2". One of the great things about 964's is that people *use* them. A lot of collector cars sit in the garage. When I 'm done restoring a car I spend some time looking at it and taking pictures as I know that's the best it will ever look - the driving starts the next day.
Cheers,
JohnA
12-07-2009, 12:15 PM
#26
Racer
Words to live by!! 
Having just done a weekend at VIR with the 964 while my old '73 is still fresh in my mind, I can comment a little on the suspension and exhaust mods made to my car. First off, be sure to take your new car to the track, I think you will like it. It's a big change to have power brakes and steering and I don't care for feel of the car with the extra 600 pounds over a '73, but its still fun. Just a different kind of fun.
My old high compression 2.4 was a great track motor, but the 3.6 is a hoot. That torque rocks! The exhaust has stock cat and main muffler but has a secondary bypass pipe. The sound is a nice low rumble, loud enough to hear it on track, but not as loud as my old 2-out sport muffler was. There is a drilled airbox and the previous owner said there is a chip change, but I don't know which one. As far as I know, the rest of the motor has not been touched.
Suspension uses H&R green springs and Bilstein Sport shocks. Bushings and sway bars appear to be stock. I used 993 "Cup 2" wheels with Toyo RA1 tires (I just received my refinished Cup 1 set from Harvey for street use). The car felt composed, although a little soft in the tighter sections. I think a bigger sway bar package would help.
So this covers a lot of the changes you are thinking about. The car still looks very stock other than the ride height. While the Cup 2 wheels will only be on for track use, they seem to be in character with the car. And the suspension and exhaust mods give it a little more feel and possibly more character compares to bone stock.
My 2 cents anyway.
Edit: measured the sway bars; front - 20mm, rear - 22mm (I know that does not sound right, stock should be 20 and 20 according to the PET)
Having just done a weekend at VIR with the 964 while my old '73 is still fresh in my mind, I can comment a little on the suspension and exhaust mods made to my car. First off, be sure to take your new car to the track, I think you will like it. It's a big change to have power brakes and steering and I don't care for feel of the car with the extra 600 pounds over a '73, but its still fun. Just a different kind of fun.
My old high compression 2.4 was a great track motor, but the 3.6 is a hoot. That torque rocks! The exhaust has stock cat and main muffler but has a secondary bypass pipe. The sound is a nice low rumble, loud enough to hear it on track, but not as loud as my old 2-out sport muffler was. There is a drilled airbox and the previous owner said there is a chip change, but I don't know which one. As far as I know, the rest of the motor has not been touched.
Suspension uses H&R green springs and Bilstein Sport shocks. Bushings and sway bars appear to be stock. I used 993 "Cup 2" wheels with Toyo RA1 tires (I just received my refinished Cup 1 set from Harvey for street use). The car felt composed, although a little soft in the tighter sections. I think a bigger sway bar package would help.
So this covers a lot of the changes you are thinking about. The car still looks very stock other than the ride height. While the Cup 2 wheels will only be on for track use, they seem to be in character with the car. And the suspension and exhaust mods give it a little more feel and possibly more character compares to bone stock.
My 2 cents anyway.
Edit: measured the sway bars; front - 20mm, rear - 22mm (I know that does not sound right, stock should be 20 and 20 according to the PET)
Last edited by racemor; 12-10-2009 at 04:35 PM.
12-08-2009, 09:10 AM
#27
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12-10-2009, 02:46 PM
#28
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Steering wheel upgrade is awesome - get rid of the vintage Ford Taurus wheel!! here's mine:
12-10-2009, 03:12 PM
#29
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12-11-2009, 02:04 PM
#30
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