Geoffrey

Robert,

but it would weigh next to nothing...

NineMeister

Ah ha! Glad you mentioned weight Geoffrey. We fitted the prototype header set to a customer's Motec equipped 964RS today and I weighed all the parts coming off and going on:

OFF
Undertrays, heat shields, silencer bracket = 8.15kg
Rear silencer = 9.6kg
Side silencer = 9.6kg
heat exchangers and cat bypass silencer = 17.5kg
Straps, fasteners & heater pipe = 2.85kg
Total weight = 47.7kg

ON
Silencers, clamps, brackets, twin tailpipes = 16.7kg
(standard 9m tailpipe = 1.45kg each, stealth pipe for LHS = 0.35kg)
Headers & collectors = 7.0kg
Crossover pipes = 3.7kg
Total = 27.4kg (twin tailpipe) or 26.3kg for stealth.

So, 21.4kg or 47lb saving if you can live without heat.


As an aside, the customer has just called me up to say that I will have to fight him to take the headers off the car, it has made such a difference to the response and torque of the engine. His engine is stock apart from Motec and only showed 10-12hp gains at the top end and 20Nm in the mid range, but he swears that the car feels an awful lot quicker. He's on a trackday next week so the proof of the pudding will come then.

Larry Herman

Very nice. How do you think they would perform without mufflers? Just about every track that I run at does not require them.

NineMeister

Great question Larry. If you wanted a set of headers to run on a 964 with no silencers there are many headers on the market that will fit and do a reasonable job, so whilst there may be some advantages in using the 9m headers with no silencers, it kind of defeats the object of the trouble we took to package them in the way they fit under the car so that we could incorporate a double silencer arrangement. This is not to say that I will not be testing the system without silencers, but I think the market will be more applicable to the 993 where there are little or no alternative systems.

Incidentally, the headers had their first track test last weekend, check out the movies on our website from the hot seat of my 993RS at the spanking new Anglesey circuit where the car beat all similar opposition including high powered Westfields & Caterhams and a 997GT3.

http://www.ninemeister.com/jon/movies.html

Charles Navarro

Nice job Colin. Well worth the money. I have customers who pay $3k for 4-2-1 tuned exhausts for their Porsche 914s, and even more if they want the heat option, so it's not too far off from what you are asking. I've seen normally aspirated F Production 914s add 25-30hp just with a change to the above tuned exhaust, over any other system. Even more on larger street engines. I could only imagine what it would do for a 911.

Strega(UK)

I think your find $8000 is quita a bit more!!!!!

Charles Navarro

I was saying in comparison to other exhausts for the 914. The next most expensive is like $500, so when you jump up to $3000, that's a lot for some to swallow. I would imagine the price differences between what's out there and Colin's new system is right in line with my comparison.

NineMeister

Thanks for the support Charles.

I think the problem I am facing is that it is tough to balance the design & development costs and low volume production costs against a retail price. Unfortunately at the moment the retail price for the header/silencer set has to be £4000 because this is almost what it costs to make, I am hence banking on reducing production costs in the future in order to make enough profit to (one day) pay for the D&D.

I would guess that this is why Robert Linton does not sell any of his sensational carbon parts, because if you added the D&D, tooling and manufacturing costs into the cost of manufacture and materials he would probably have to charge us more than $10,000 for a carbon hood that is just 2lb lighter than a competitor's product. That said, some would happily pay it.....

Robert Linton

As to the headers, if we were to make them to F1 quality, the first set with mufflers but without heater boxes might cost between $10,000 and $13,500 (approximately £4857 to £6558 at today's exchange rates). Subsequent sets, if ordered in quantities of, e.g., 5, might be between $8500 and $12,000 (approximately £4128 to £5828 at today's exchange rates). Admittedly, these prices are high but the quality would be second to none, with all respect to Colin.

As to the carbon hood, in quantities of 1, including the titanium prop rod, the carbon fiber prop rod clip, "rolled" carbon edges, etc., it would cost almost $6000 (approximately £2913 at today's exchange rates) -- but, to be sure, and with no modesty, this is as fine a hood as one could get. Having said that, if we were making, e.g., 100 hoods, we would change the production method and move production to Eastern Europe and could produce a first quality hood for approximately $1700 each (approximately £825 at today's exchange rates).

As to the reason we do not sell these products, we simply are not in the retail business, nor do we want to be. Further, the number of retail customers who would appreciate the highest quality of product, let alone be willing to pay for them is small.

Finally, back to Colin's prices, they are particularly high due not to him, but to the dollar/pound exchange rate over which he has no control. As Cartridge is, among other things, the North American Distributor for McLaren Electronics, we have the same problem and I am constantly apologizing for U.S. prices that are beyond our control because of that horrible exchange rate. This having been said, if you want the best...!

Anatol

The whole discussion of prices seems a bit futile to me. There are many cheaper products out there on the market - but you get what you pay for. This is a free market where nobody NEEDS such an exhaust system. And those who really WANT one will pay the price.

Exchange rates distort the picture and will reduce the market in some areas. But please - who really calculates the financial issues involved with tuning an old Porsche, balancing money against benefit.

Either you do it or you don't.

So let us get back to the main topic: eg. do I need to re-chip my car if I mount a header system to get the best out of it. Or is it simply plug and play?

David K.

Here's are some domestic alternatives from S-Car-Go.
I have been running the EARLY style 26" 1 3/4 911 Headers on my 964 for years.

AVoyvoda

S-Car-Go headers were one of the alternative systems tested. Nice, but not quite the ultimate. Like Anatol says, if you want the best you got to pay for it and no exhaust system or heads or other mods really makes any financial sense on a 13 year old car. On the other hand, if you want your car to make sense, buy a Toyota hatch.

NineMeister

Unfortunately Scargo 964 headers will not fit a 993 and they also do not make silencers, their 993 headers will not fit 993 standard silencers, nor fit a 964...... need I go on? I only got into header design because we could not buy what we wanted from anywhere else - which to my mind is a good enough reason to do something about filling a potential gap in the market. If I sold just the header pipes and the collectors as a set you would probably be looking at around £2000 a set which is comparable with Scargo's prices even allowing for the exchange rate. However the real difference is that if you actually want to fit headers to a road car and drive it without going deaf, our matching 102dBa zero-boom silencers will do the job nicely.

Geoffrey

I also think that the 1 3/4" primaries are too large for a stock internal 964/993 engine.

NineMeister

Thanks for your input Robert. Your numbers (as usual) are pretty much spot on. The first two sets of headers, one 993 excluding silencers and one 964 including silencers have cost me the thick end of £14,000 which includes all D&D and tooling. They are indeed made by a company who are making exhausts for F1 and other high end motorsport applications, so if you want a set making for you in inconel or titanium please let me know, it would not be a problem.

I am working on production costs with the fabricator and hope that with minor re-design work on the silencers and buying in some of the pipework pre-bent we can make small savings, but this will have little impact on the selling price until I have recovered the above costs. I have no intention of farming out the fabrication as I firmly believe that only a top quality product is worth putting my name to.

My price for the hood was reasonably good guess.....