TR6

Sorry to recycle what is undoubtedly a well worn topic, but I currently have my 93 RS America at the shop with the transmission out (see this thread). The car is a weekend street car with what I hope to be a couple of DE's a year thrown in. This car will never race. I asked the mechanic to let me know how the clutch and flywheel look while he has it open (the clutch has not been showing any signs of slipping). I talked to him today and he told me that the clutch has about 50% to 60% life left and that the DMF is getting "a little soft". He recommends replacing these components as long as we have the transmission out. Makes sense to me although I probably could have gotten another year or two out of them (my personal guess only). Based on records, it looks like the clutch has about 40K to 50K miles on it and I have no record of the DMF being replaced (cannot be sure, so I'm assuming it is original).

Obviously, cost is a concern since this is an unbudgeted repair (aren't they all!). But on the other hand, I don't want to have to pull these components out again in a year or less because I was too cheap to do the clutch while it was apart. Here's my delimma: which flywheel to go with and which clutch components (again, assuming that money is not unlimited). Also, which vendor(s) have the best deal (I've only checked Pelican and Vertex so far as a lot of them are closed early for the new year holiday).

1) LWF? My initial reaction based on reading pages and pages of threads here is to stay away from a LWF since I sometimes drive my car to work which involves sitting in stop and go traffic with the air conditioner on. But I'm open to being convinced since most of the threads seemed somewhat inconclusive.
2) Are there any other single mass flywheel options besides a LWF? Or is the choice limited to either a LWF or a DMF? I tried calling Andial, but they are closed until Jan 2 so I have no idea what their flywheel costs. I suspect its out of my budget. Vertex lists a "flywheel club sport" which is single mass, but the salesman couldn't tell me any details about it such as weight. It is listed at $375.
3) Assuming DMF is the choice for me, it appears that LUK is the brand of choice. Any other viable options that anyone would recommend?
4) Clutch pressure plate, disc, throw out bearing kits: Sachs brand? Any other recommendations?

Any input is appreciated. This is weighing heavily on me right now because it was all completely unexpected and right on the heels of Christmas expenses!

MarkD

Greg,
There is a clutch flywheel setup made by Fidanza that I think is an option but from what others have said it should be avoided. Search on Fidanza for more. It is a "weight reduction" flywheel.
So, then it's either a LWF or DMF... you know the pros and cons. I gotta tell ya, I drove a friends 993 with a LWF and it made me WISH I could put one in my 993... it revs very quick compared to DMF.

I just did the clutch in my 993 and found some reputable suppliers on eBay of all places. Their prices were considerably less than anyone else I could find. This was a Luk DMF and Sachs clutch kit, 2 different suppliers. I have no idea what would have hapened if I needed after sales support but it saved me about $250 overall. One seller was Quality Import Parts. I just checked eBay and their price on a Luk DMF is $764 plus $20 shipping. It comes with new flywheel bolts. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/90-91...spagenameZWD1V The clutch kit I bought via gripforce clutches. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SACHS...spagenameZWDVW These suppliers are using eBay as a storefront... and I could not find a better price. All parts were as advertised. New Luk and Sachs.

As for doing the job now, it's hard to tell how much you could get out of yours. My 993 had 100K miles on it's original clutch... the flywheel was causing a vibration or I wouldn't have replaced it.
Then again, it could save you some bucks to do it now... you know the deal.

TR6

Thanks for the tip on the ebay suppliers. Vertex actually has the LUK DMF flywheel marginally cheaper at $679, but your ebay supplier has a much cheaper price on the Sachs clutch kit so that may be a good option for me.

I'd love to try a lightweight flywheel because I am very tempted by the performance gains in the lower gears, but I would sure feel stupid if I did that and then found that I could no longer drive it in stop and go traffic to work.

GG Allin

I did the LWF. No problems.............as long as the A/C is not on. If you use your A/C in stop and go traffic, I wouldn't do it.

Indycam

The 89 flywheel is not the lwf or the dmf .

J richard

Greg,

I've got the LWF/cup clutch in my 93 rsa. I did it due to the fact the car gets alot of DE use, and it does give you more flexiblity in the lower gears on the track and rpm matching for heel/toe is much better, but the stalling issue is real. On the track the rpm is hardly ever below 3K so it's not an issue.

I would not do it for a daily driver. Big mistake. Also be careful there seems to be a big difference in success rates between the 993 and the 964's; apples and oranges.

In the wintertime or without the AC on it's not too much of an issue, but with the AC on in a hot location like yours, then add the lights, radio and the thing will be an embarrassment at every stoplight. Worse yet you can push the clutch in at speed and it will stall, and hopefully you can just slip the clutch out for a restart but sometimes it doesn't.

I have a remapped chip for additional idle rpm, no difference.
I have tried cleaning/adjusting the ISV, no difference.
I have tried the rubber tube on the throttle stop, it works but the things runs so rich at idle you can smell the fuel, and that's got to be bad for the cylinders and a real problem for the cat if you run one.

What I have found is you have to drive the car differently, you roll up to a stop with the engine in gear, as the rpm drops to about 900rpm push in the clutch and the idle is stable. If you blip the throttle at idle it will die. You get used to it but it is a compromise in my opinion.

I Had a hard time understanding why this would have been an issue for Porsche, I lined up the cup clutch/flywheel with an old 3.2 spring hub/flywheel, besides the sensor ring they look remarkably the same and weigh almost the same, so I was suprised there was a problem. The DME just can't deal with snapping the throttle closed, and the engine stalls, just speeding up the idle is not the issue. There is additional clutch chatter as well, so unless your used to older car chatter it might take you by suprise.

Having had this experience I would definately look into the other "lightening" kits, the Andial one I looked at but haven't investigated. Or simply go with the original dual mass with a sport disk/cover.

Anyway good luck with it

Jim

Chris M.

Take a look at THIS thread. As you'll see I drove this car and there were no stalling issues but the A/C was not on. I'm pretty sure there are no problems but ask him to be sure.

chancecasey

you can get a new luk dmf from dial-a-clutch for $600

JW in Texas

Greg,
You need to drop by & we will take the gray car out. It drives exactly like Jim said & I use the same techniques he does. It will die if you push the clutch in w/AC engaged @ above 1k, probably ok up to 1500 or so w/o AC on. Give me a buzz & we will go out tomorrow so you can give it a try. It is an adjustment & you may find it too big a PIA in traffic to be worthwhile. I didn't have a choice with the supercharger since a stock flywheel/clutch would have lasted about 10 minutes according to SoK

MarkD

Figures there are cheaper sources on the DMF... I should have posted here! I thought I found a deal.

Don;t forget to consider shipping and possible tax avoidance.

Great tips here.

Good luck with the decision!

Eric Kessel

If you can wait to get an answer from Andial, I highly recommend the "mid weight" flywheel they sell. A few years back it was $400 or so to add the weight to a LWF (I sent them my flywheel, and they machined/bolted a ring on the back) I use the car as a daily (as long as it isn't snowing) driver, and it will not stall (summer with AC and lights on). At the local autox, i've swapped cars with a competitor, and we both agreed the flywheel makes the car feel faster....... and my car is a beater compared to his full track setup. Just my 2 cents.

TR6

Does anyone know how much Andial sells a midweight flywheel for outright?

JasonAndreas

The dualmass flywheel from a 993TT or 996TT will more than handle the power you are outputting with a supercharger.

If anyone has a LWF, experiences the occasional stall AND your 964 is currently running on the road then send me a PM with your mailing address. I have a replacement DME eprom that fixes the problem (and doesn't raise your idle speed) but I'm looking for more people to try it (this revision) before I start sending out copies to everyone.

Steven C.

Jason,

pleaseee do a chip for me. But I am the guy with cup cams, 1995 intakes and MAF.

Greg,

If I remember correctly the Andial deal is $1,600 but I may be wrong. Without AC mine does not stall. With AC only when you let off above 1,500rpm as stated above. You are welcome to drive mine this weekend if you want. Send me a PM if you do.

nekbet

Just one more opinion from someone who has a LWFW... I'd skip it.. My car came with one, and it stalls with the AC and accessories on...

Yes, the rev'ing is awesome.. but the drivability lacks day to day. I dont feel comfortable letting others drive the car as, if they're not used to it it requires alot of clutch slipping and/or revving to get going. Makes me cringe!

Regards,

Mike
1990 964 C4 Targa