Jean

Yes that is what I said earlier (see below), it can be done.
Concerning your comment below. (I don't mean to nitpick by quoting and I apologize, it is just to make the debate more understandable)
It seems like it is an amazing approach rather, judging by the results. Are you sure that my ECU is closer to an aftermarket ECU?

- My N/A Motronic ECU keeps all the diagnostics/limp home modes and base calibrations from BOSCH 100% intact.
- They have modified the fuel calculation to accept MAP vs. MAF and had to deal with some issues like the idle calibration that used to use the MAF for idle stabilization and no longer can.
- The only input that's been changed on my ecu is the MAP sensor like I disclosed all the way in the beginning.
- Everything else is OEM BOSCH
- All the inputs from the OEM sensors are BOSCH tuned, not tuned by my tuner.

So all the failsafe stuff is backed by a multimillion dollar corporation that has unlimited resources for mapping capability vs. an aftermarket ECU and tuner (even the best) who does the tuning on a chassis dyno.

I believe all the above make it certainly a Bosch Motronic ECU and nothing to do with an aftermarket ECU.

I cannot disclose more information for obvious reasons, but the assertion that my Motronic ECU is more like an aftermarket ECU cannot be more mistaken.
I believe this kills the idea that it is not feasible, and seeing the power levels that I see with my car, it certainly also kills the idea that Motronic cannot perform at the highest tuned levels.

In the case of TB993TT, it is even more "stock" Motronic, reading MAF still and boost being even controlled by the ECU. I would like to see one daily driven Porsche street car in the UK running Motec that is faster than his. I will be on a plane in no time to watch it .

AVoyvoda

Very interesting Jean, and yours is - obviously - the best solution. You seem to have the best of both worlds. The problem remains, that Colin and Geoffrey are un-willing/un-able to use Motronic. Installing Colin's components and having the Motronic re-mapped at the same place as Jean, could be a very interesting alternative...

Jean

Alex

It is a good solution, certainly there are better out there.

I agree 100% with Colin and Geoffrey if they don't want to do Motronic, I obviously have nothing to do with it. I am trying to isolate the tuner part from the ECU capability only. There are some in Europe and others in the US, but if I lived next to a Motec tuner and no Motronic tuners around (a 1000 miles maybe that is), I might have gone the Motec route myself but if both are unavailable close to me, I would go with Motronic because of the added safety it provides me, and I found the flexibility I need through online tuning, sharing files and burning of my chips. The best of both worlds maybe.

Geoffrey

"However a tuner that has never hurt (not break) on high strung street engine because of having a little too much timing and no knock sensors to protect it is not a common one."

I'm not sure I understand this statement.

Yes, I have said that I carefully control the dyno testing, particularly a chassis dyno so it best represents consistent repeatable results. Also, please don't mistake my words, I have also said that I do not road tune engines other than for drivability meaning that I do not try to tune an engine for performance on the road. I don't know a way to set ignition timing without a dyno unless you are using in cylinder pressure sensors with software analysis, then it might be possible.

"If you don't keep a certain limited safety margin, and the "highly tuned" street car goes for a ride to California with 91 octane under WOT without changing the programming, it will go bang!"

Of course! And even though you may have knock sensors to "protect" you, running on the knock sensors causes undesirable side effects, like a drop in performance as you mentioned, higher fuel consumption due to the reduction of efficiency, and higher heat from retarded timing that causes increased catalytic converter temps and can cause damage quite quickly. I don't believe running on knock sensors for any length of time is a good thing. But please don't misunderstand me, I think knock sensors are a good thing, often misused by aftermarket tuners, but a good thing nontheless. I had considered using the optional MoTeC knock control module in my race car, but I didn't for several reasons including not knowing how a change to the engine's knock frequency due to an engine design that differed from the factory which had knock sensors designed for a specific knock frequency would effect the knock sensor's operation.

"So for a highly strung (340BHP?) street car going around places and using different fuels and being used in summer and winter, the Motronic will let you tune more aggressively, while with Motec you might need a certain (limited) safety net, otherwise it would not be prudent. For a race car with constant racing fuel octane and a Motec (TAG or other) tuner available in the pits, it certainly is the best solution out there, no doubt about it, and this is why some of the Porsche racing cars use them, for practicality purposes (per Paul Frere as well)"

Which is precicely why my company deals primarily with Racing cars. I am interested in the best pefromance for a given engine combination in a controlled environment, not a compromize. This does not mean that you cannot create a similar environment on the street, nor am I implying that you cannot improve performance with an effective safety margin with a MoTeC ECU on the street. Unlike some other engines with highly efficient cylinder heads, the Porsche 2v 911 engine has a window where the engine will make peak torque but not detonate. I have found this sufficient for programming an engine for a specific octane fuel and accomodating the variances found between brands and summer/winter mixtures. I do not think it would be enough of a window to drop down more than 1 octane point though. When in NY we lost 94 octane Sunoco and had to use 93 octane, I did recheck my 911 turbo and found I minimum timing/best torque was on average 1 degree less than with the 94, although I had been tracking my car for awhile on the 93 with the ignition timing set for 94.

Christer

I just thought I would add my experiences with a 9M Motec conversion as I have had it for a while - 2.5 years and approx. 15000 miles.

As background info, I approached Colin at 9M when the 'Motec+1' package had been fitted to a few cars only and the '+2' package had been just about put together (which at the time I believe included titanium valvetrain and longer cams above and beyond the '+1' which I think was the Motec, air intake etc.). We discussed back and forth what I wanted to achieve etc. and at the time one of the things I wanted to do was to make sure I could seal the heads as I had the old style design....At the time, 3.8 Cup P&C's cost only a few hundred £ more than say 993 P&C's so the 3.8 option was chosen. In addition, Colin was keen to try some longer cams (310 degree) - I think he uses 320's in his race car so we basically started a custom build which I believe to date has not been replicated. Titanium valvetrain, Carillo con rods, the existing heads were ported, the case was smoothed out to decrease windage and the engine was rebuilt from the bottom-up. I think the only thing that wasn't changed was the oil pump - which may have been a mistake thinking about it... Additionally, I installed RS clutch and flywheel as well as an LSD. The reason for giving the background was just to highlight the fact that this was something that had not really been done before, and it was my insistence that made this go ahead....and I guess I should have listened to Colin who was already then telling me that a 3.8 wasn't really worth it...but I wanted the heads sealed...so off we went...back to this later....

My car was was there for a number of months, and because it was a turnkey project - from memory we found that for example the starting maps for the existing Motec conversions were a bit out. I remember Colin at the time saying that at certain places on the power curve my engine was needing xx% more fuel than the Motec +1 conversion for example, so whilst we didn't have to start from scratch we had quite a bit of mapping to do. From memory, a few extra hours were required for mapping the Motec to a driveable standard and this leads to my observations on driveability:

Driveability is definitely worse than it was, but I am not sure how much if any of this is down to the Motec. The engine never stalls with Motec, even though throttle response is much faster than an RS flywheel equipped car witht he airflap and Motronic. I do have some fuelling issues at very low revs with trailing or even throttle in the form of some 'shunting', but again with the cams etc. I run I am not sure how much is down to the mapping, and howmuch is down to the configuration of the engine. Additionally, I cannot in 2nd, 3rd or 4th gear give full throttle below approx 2700rpm. I have to kind of squeeze the power in and I think again trhis is due to the cams - there probably is just not enough air flow......but the car is still much torquier below 2700rpm compared to a standard car - I justr have to change my driving style a little. All the above is not a problem for me, even in traffic you just learn to clutch alittle earlier to avoid the shunting and the throttle modulation becomes second nature - but these still remain and I have no idea how they measure up against one of 9M's standard Motec conversions from a driveability point of view. Each owner has to decide what is a PITA and what isn't. I am guessing I could spend more time on the dyno to try to iron these out to a point, but to me it isn't worth my time - I can easily live with it as it is.

Reliability - I have never had any problems that have been Motec related. A few people have touched on emissions, and I think that if you are going to go this route then this is something that *the individual owner* needs to check out. With 9M and possibly Racetek going this route, I don't think it is fair to criticise these companies for not providing global guarantees for emissions when this is not what these companies are currently offering anyway. The 9M/Motec product may be coming to the US, but I don't think any owners there will be silly enough to convert their road-going car this way until they know that the smog or emissions tests can be met. For my part here in the UK, any pre-1992 cars do not need to run a cat (now I don't even know whether the Motec system can run with a CAT - I think it can but not sure) so my only question to Colin was: can the car pass emissions without a CAT and Motec installed as it is? His answer was 'yes', and to date (i.e. 2 inspections later) this has never been a problem. I appreciate that a lot of different countries have different standards so I guess if you are in the market, check it out first. I am sure that if Colin is not sure, then he will tell you exactly that.
As you know, the car currently has a slight problem idling and I don't know whether this is Motec related as I have driven the car in hot 36degC summers as well as sub-zero temparatures and never had any problem. I have also driven the car on only 95RON fuel for limited periods with no problems whatsoever - NB I would never use WOT or high revs though if this was the case - and the 2 times it happened I cruised on the motorway at moderate speed and throttle until I could find 98+RON. An additional difficulty (potentially)is that the car is in Denmark, Porsche Aarhus have never heard of Motec and there is no Motec dealer in Denmark according to Motec's site. Whether there are people in Denmark who can use Motec and know it - I have no idea so you could argue that it is indeed a disadvantage of using Motec. We will see, it may be that some connections need cleaning or that something else has failed which is causing the problem.

As to the question whether Motronic or Motec is the way to go...I think I would err on the side of Motronic IF there had been someone around that knows how to convert my car the way it was done with the larger injectors etc. and gained the same amount of power.I don't think anyone disagrees that this would be preferable. I still have my old ECU and if someone can map it so that my car delivers around 310-315rwhp then I am very happy for them to try - and I would pay for it as long as they promise a certain level of power as Colin promised me.

At the end of the day, I guess alot of people will not find this subjective account interesting or even useful. I am sure I have left some bits out as I am not concentrating fully on this as I am currently at work! I could mention all the 'good' bits of the comversion - the car will spin its wheels in 3rd gear passing through 4000rpm at WOT when the road is very wet, it holds power to waaay over 7000rpm - rev limit at 7250 0- and if it had been a track car I think Colin would have set the limit higher....I think it sounds awesome - the beat of the engine with the very long cams is great - it idles lumpily, angrily and requires a lot of respect when driving in the wet. It uses a fair bit of fuel, but I think I managed 24MPG on the run down to Le Mans this years which was pretty much all either traffic or heavy throttle and cruising at 100ish MPH...not bad for a car that (allegedly) puts out around 310rwhp I think....I believe the Motec has been set up so that at constant very low throttle opening (i.e. motorway cruising) the fuelling is cut right back to help economy - I know for a fact I can get around 34mpg at an even 75mph....I think thats pretty good.

I don't think this thread has had alot of value for a lot of people. If anyone wants to know about real-life experiences with Motec or 9M's products you can just PM me or ask me on this thread - I don't really find it so interesting to hear about the semantics over which is better or not - which is cheaper or not - which is preferred or not - people scoring points off each other. What does that mean to the average guy in the street who wants to modify his car? Fu*k all I would have thought. And that is why I have said time and time again especially to people like Simon - people have to choose for themselves what they want to do with their car, what is the point of coming across as the Protector of 9M or the Protector of Motec - and then just undermining your own credibility??? Some of the exchanges you have been involved with are almost childish and I can only think that you are getting involved because you are reassuring yourself that the Motec / 9M route is the way to go for you....but there is a better way of doing this than cxoming across as the most biased person ever to post on these boards......ask people that have modified their cars, talk to the tuners in question / find the answers and if you trust someone, place your order. I know I am singling you out here, there are others as well - but you have to consider your own credibility sometimes.

I am done with this thread unless anyone has any specific questions as to actual experiences with Motec etc. - hopefully what I have said has been useful to someone

SimonExtreme

Finally, some interesting and meaningful comments! Thank you Jean and Christer. I am sorry that Christer seeing my posts has got the wrong end of the stick because all I have been after is information and data. I have a nasty habit of getting into arguements when I see things (IMO for the sake of peace) being distorted to defend a viewpoint.

One thing has suprised me.I had taken it for granted that once on pushed past a certain point of tuning (about where my car is now) you are entering a whole new world where you are mixing race technology and road stuff. Within reason, I accept that. I think it is irresponsible of tuners to sell these types of product as being "pure street" if they are not and customers should know and understand the risks to their engines. I had presumed that was taken for granted, but maybe not.