964 or 993?
03-23-2002, 07:03 PM
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964 or 993?
Hi everyone, a newbie with some questions. I am posting this on both 964 and 993 forums to get everyone’s opinion. I am considering buying a 90-91 964 or a 95 993 Cab. From what I’ve seen, the difference between a reasonably clean 50-70k mile 993 ($40k) and 964 ($30k) is about $10k (damn, those calculus classes are finally paying off 
).
From a salesman point of view, the differences seem to be exterior appearance (interior looks about the same) 25 HP, an extra transmission gear, and a little higher rear end gearing. This morning, my wife and I sat in a ’91 and ’95 with our 2 year old daughter to get impressions of the cars. One thing we both commented on was that the 993 interior seemed smaller, more cramped. Is this true?
What other differences should I be considering for my $10k? And for the 964 folks, what kind of $$$ would I have to spend to make up the 25 HP and what performance upgrades are popular (and actually work
)?
Thanks for the help…..
). From a salesman point of view, the differences seem to be exterior appearance (interior looks about the same) 25 HP, an extra transmission gear, and a little higher rear end gearing. This morning, my wife and I sat in a ’91 and ’95 with our 2 year old daughter to get impressions of the cars. One thing we both commented on was that the 993 interior seemed smaller, more cramped. Is this true?
What other differences should I be considering for my $10k? And for the 964 folks, what kind of $$$ would I have to spend to make up the 25 HP and what performance upgrades are popular (and actually work
)?Thanks for the help…..
03-23-2002, 08:08 PM
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Best advice I know is to buy the lowest milage, best taken care of Porsche you can afford. I would stay clear of 95' 993's -- real problem with wiring that is extremely expensive to fix. I'd get a low milage 20 to 30K 964, 92' or better. If you can stretch to a 96' 993 -- that's a different matter. Good luck -- nothing like owning a Porsche.
03-23-2002, 08:56 PM
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The 993 doesn't need valve adjustments like the 964 has. Do 993's have the dual distributor? If not, that's a plus (don't have to worry about the distributor belt breaking). <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" /> There's the oft repeated flywheel discussion, but with a '92, I think that problem had been solved. I agree with Jeff and others; buy the best one you can afford. Get a Pre purchase inspection, too. Good luck! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
03-23-2002, 08:59 PM
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We have just bought a 90 964 & can tell you that its a fantastice motor vehicle. It basically boils down to "get the newest & best car you can afford". The 993 is the definitive air cooled Porsche & as such is considered to be the best of the air cooled models. It will be a lot cheaper to maintain as the valve adjustment is fully auto, the ride quality is supposed to be superior the the 964 as the rear suspension is redesigned & the interior is slightly upgraded. That said though, a good 964 is still a beautiful piece of machinery. Enjoy whichever you can afford!
03-23-2002, 09:05 PM
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Shark01
I think its first really asking yourself which model you like the best 964 or 993. Then its a matter of finding a well kept example of that particular model.
Alternatively, if there are competing factors between 2 individual examples, one being a 964 and the other being a 993, I would as has been said previously go for low milage, but also how the individual cars present themselves and the cost differential between the 2 vehicles in getting a car with lower milage but which may be at a significantly higher cost.
Please remember that Porsche made the 964 and the 993 the way they are and if you spend $10,000 on modifications to the 964 you will not likely recover those costs when you go to sell the car. Also aftermarket horsepower additions may be good for a project car and going to the track, but it sounds like you have a wife and child and they may not appreciate the added horsepower for a reduction in drivability.
Have you driven the 964 and the 993 with your family. Again this may be your answer.
Your question is very difficult to answer, but I hope this gives you some guidance and maybe others can further assist.
Steve Smith
93 C2 Tip
I think its first really asking yourself which model you like the best 964 or 993. Then its a matter of finding a well kept example of that particular model.
Alternatively, if there are competing factors between 2 individual examples, one being a 964 and the other being a 993, I would as has been said previously go for low milage, but also how the individual cars present themselves and the cost differential between the 2 vehicles in getting a car with lower milage but which may be at a significantly higher cost.
Please remember that Porsche made the 964 and the 993 the way they are and if you spend $10,000 on modifications to the 964 you will not likely recover those costs when you go to sell the car. Also aftermarket horsepower additions may be good for a project car and going to the track, but it sounds like you have a wife and child and they may not appreciate the added horsepower for a reduction in drivability.
Have you driven the 964 and the 993 with your family. Again this may be your answer.
Your question is very difficult to answer, but I hope this gives you some guidance and maybe others can further assist.
Steve Smith
93 C2 Tip
03-23-2002, 09:25 PM
#6
Shark01:
The 964's seem to be the bargin 911's right now. Lots of car for relatively little money. Really nice 964's seem to top out in the low $30,000 range. Average stuff seems to be cheaper than the older 3.2 Carreras.
I wouldn't worry about the 23 hp difference between the '95 993 and a 964. Factory figures state that the 964 is about 1/10th of a second slower from 0-60 mph than the '95 993. The '96 993 is 2/10th's of a second faster than the 964 models. I can't feel 2/10th's of a second (from 0-60 mph) and I'm not sure if many people can. Stephen's comments in the post above mine regarding modifications are right on the money. Save your money.
The Varioram system on the 1996 and newer 993's gives a flatter torque curve. I would also assume the 6 speed on the 993 is desireable.
I don't think maintenance is much cheaper on a 993 than a 964. The 993 valves are hydraulic, which eliminates the valve adjustment costs. But, you still have a dual distributor on the 993 and that means pulling the exhaust down to get at the bottom 6 plugs (of the 12 plug system like the 964). The oil changes are a bit more complicated on the 993 due to the 2nd oil filter location on the motor requiring 2 elbows to get at.
The 993 is still based on the classic 911 platform, so the interior dimensions should be similar to the 964 (and older 911 models). A Cabriolet will be smaller in the back than a coupe due to the folding top.
I'd take a well maintained car with higher miles than a neglected car with low miles. Condition seems to be everything on these cars.
The wiring loom is fixable on the 1995 993s. The common 964 problems also can be remedied with reliable and permanent fixes. Check the archives for all of this info. It's been discussed quite a bit in the recent past.
Looks are subjective and that choice is up to you. I'd put my money in a 964 and leave the balance you save in the bank for maintenance and repairs. But, as mentioned above, the 993 is the best developed of the air cooled 911's. You can't loose with either.
Good Luck!
Jay
90 964
The 964's seem to be the bargin 911's right now. Lots of car for relatively little money. Really nice 964's seem to top out in the low $30,000 range. Average stuff seems to be cheaper than the older 3.2 Carreras.
I wouldn't worry about the 23 hp difference between the '95 993 and a 964. Factory figures state that the 964 is about 1/10th of a second slower from 0-60 mph than the '95 993. The '96 993 is 2/10th's of a second faster than the 964 models. I can't feel 2/10th's of a second (from 0-60 mph) and I'm not sure if many people can. Stephen's comments in the post above mine regarding modifications are right on the money. Save your money.
The Varioram system on the 1996 and newer 993's gives a flatter torque curve. I would also assume the 6 speed on the 993 is desireable.
I don't think maintenance is much cheaper on a 993 than a 964. The 993 valves are hydraulic, which eliminates the valve adjustment costs. But, you still have a dual distributor on the 993 and that means pulling the exhaust down to get at the bottom 6 plugs (of the 12 plug system like the 964). The oil changes are a bit more complicated on the 993 due to the 2nd oil filter location on the motor requiring 2 elbows to get at.
The 993 is still based on the classic 911 platform, so the interior dimensions should be similar to the 964 (and older 911 models). A Cabriolet will be smaller in the back than a coupe due to the folding top.
I'd take a well maintained car with higher miles than a neglected car with low miles. Condition seems to be everything on these cars.
The wiring loom is fixable on the 1995 993s. The common 964 problems also can be remedied with reliable and permanent fixes. Check the archives for all of this info. It's been discussed quite a bit in the recent past.
Looks are subjective and that choice is up to you. I'd put my money in a 964 and leave the balance you save in the bank for maintenance and repairs. But, as mentioned above, the 993 is the best developed of the air cooled 911's. You can't loose with either.
Good Luck!
Jay
90 964
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03-24-2002, 12:24 AM
#8
Racer
Starting with the 92 model year, Porsche redesigned the cylinder to head sealing to eliminate oil leaks that developed in some of the '90-'91 cars, and did this modification under warrenty to '90-91 cars that developed leaks within some specified time or mileage. If you get a 90-91 model 964, be sure to do your homework, as this modification is very expensive if you have to pay for it yourself.
Another thing to consider is if you get a car made before Porsche switched to R-134 from Freon12 sooner or later you'll have to have this done, as Freon12 has become hard to get and expensive also.
Another thing to consider is if you get a car made before Porsche switched to R-134 from Freon12 sooner or later you'll have to have this done, as Freon12 has become hard to get and expensive also.
03-24-2002, 12:54 AM
#9
Burning Brakes
A lot of people seem to think that it's much less expensive to maintain a 993 as compared to a 964, and that's actually not accurate (at least where I live). True, the 993's do not require valve adjustments, but they're more labor intensive to work on in just about every other aspect as compared to a 964.
As far as the 25 hp difference, it's really not significant and you will spend big bucks trying to get it. You may see performance chips, high flow air filters, and other easy modifications (e.g., cup bypass pipe) that promise big gains. Divide what they promise by a factor of 5 and that's probably more accurate. If you really want/need the power, I would just spend the extra money and buy the 993 (easy for me to say, it's not my money
)
Drew
92 C2
As far as the 25 hp difference, it's really not significant and you will spend big bucks trying to get it. You may see performance chips, high flow air filters, and other easy modifications (e.g., cup bypass pipe) that promise big gains. Divide what they promise by a factor of 5 and that's probably more accurate. If you really want/need the power, I would just spend the extra money and buy the 993 (easy for me to say, it's not my money
)Drew
92 C2
03-24-2002, 01:08 AM
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Since others have already filled in the details--in particular, I'm in agreement with what Jay has written--I'll present a short summary of what I see as good reasons for paying the extra 
to get into a 993:
1) You really love the 993's styling.
2) You really want the more powerful engine, 6-speed, and updated suspension--even though the performance improvements are relatively modest.
3) You really want a newer car.
>And for the 964 folks, what kind of $$$ would I have to spend to make up the 25 HP and what performance upgrades are popular (and actually work )?
To get a good chunk of the 25 hp back, you can have a performance exhaust system installed. If you don't need to remain smog legal (i.e., your car will be legal sans catalytic converter), you can go with B&B, somewhere around $2300 with a muffler. If you need to remain smog legal, GHL is marketing header/heaters with dual cats. for just under $3k (10% off for rennlist discount), pending C.A.R.B. certification. Not sure how C.A.R.B. certification will carry over to Texas smog laws ... or what smog laws Texas might have??
One more thought regarding the 993's extra 25 hp. Bruce Anderson has written that "most" of the additional hp is due to the 993's new exhaust system. I feel that no more than 15 hp (would that still qualify for "most"?) is a good number, as that is what I've read aftermarket header manufacturers claim for their systems.
Finally, as others have already written, the most important consideration is getting a well maintained example. Deferred maintenance on these cars can be very pricey to correct.
Best of luck!
to get into a 993:1) You really love the 993's styling.
2) You really want the more powerful engine, 6-speed, and updated suspension--even though the performance improvements are relatively modest.
3) You really want a newer car.
>And for the 964 folks, what kind of $$$ would I have to spend to make up the 25 HP and what performance upgrades are popular (and actually work )?
To get a good chunk of the 25 hp back, you can have a performance exhaust system installed. If you don't need to remain smog legal (i.e., your car will be legal sans catalytic converter), you can go with B&B, somewhere around $2300 with a muffler. If you need to remain smog legal, GHL is marketing header/heaters with dual cats. for just under $3k (10% off for rennlist discount), pending C.A.R.B. certification. Not sure how C.A.R.B. certification will carry over to Texas smog laws ... or what smog laws Texas might have??
One more thought regarding the 993's extra 25 hp. Bruce Anderson has written that "most" of the additional hp is due to the 993's new exhaust system. I feel that no more than 15 hp (would that still qualify for "most"?) is a good number, as that is what I've read aftermarket header manufacturers claim for their systems.
Finally, as others have already written, the most important consideration is getting a well maintained example. Deferred maintenance on these cars can be very pricey to correct.
Best of luck!
03-24-2002, 03:23 AM
#11
Just for clarification of the cylinder head issue, the engine modifications for the 964 series started in the early part of the production run for the 1991 model year. I have a '91 964 that was built in January of 1991 and it has the factory installed fixes (new heads, cylinders, gaskets, etc) installed. My car was several thousand units into post-update production, which implies that only a small percentage of the '91 series will be built without this "fix" installed. This problem is for the most part the exclusive domain of the '89 C4, the '90 C2 and C4, and a small number of '91 models. For '91 you need to check the engine serial numbers to see if you have the factory fixes installed.
For anyone interested, here's a cut-n-paste from some of my notes:
Engine serial numbers where the changeover from non-gasketted to gasketted heads
occured in 1991 as follows:
Manual Transmission: any number beyond 62 M 06836, M64.01
Tiptronic Transmisson: any number beyond 62 M 52757, M64.02
This change most likely took place in the fall of 1990 (unconfirmed by me).
While I'm at it, I might as well toss in the info for the Freudenberg to LUK switch as well:
Engine serial numbers where the LUK dual mass flywheel was used instead of the
Freudenberg flywheel began with engine number 62 N 01738. The change took place
on May 13, 1992.
Serial number for the early LUK flywheels (maybe even later) for upgraded units is:
964 114 012 02
CHEERS <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Bill Wagner
For anyone interested, here's a cut-n-paste from some of my notes:
Engine serial numbers where the changeover from non-gasketted to gasketted heads
occured in 1991 as follows:
Manual Transmission: any number beyond 62 M 06836, M64.01
Tiptronic Transmisson: any number beyond 62 M 52757, M64.02
This change most likely took place in the fall of 1990 (unconfirmed by me).
While I'm at it, I might as well toss in the info for the Freudenberg to LUK switch as well:
Engine serial numbers where the LUK dual mass flywheel was used instead of the
Freudenberg flywheel began with engine number 62 N 01738. The change took place
on May 13, 1992.
Serial number for the early LUK flywheels (maybe even later) for upgraded units is:
964 114 012 02
CHEERS <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Bill Wagner
03-24-2002, 07:43 AM
#12
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FWIW, I'd probably buy a late model 964 before I'd buy a 95 993. There were some issues with the 1995 993 (you'll need to do the research, I want to say they were engine-related) that were corrected in 1996. This may have been answered on the PCA web site in the technical discussion area, which can be seen at <a href="http://www.pca.org/tech/tech_qa_area.asp?id=8" target="_blank">http://www.pca.org/tech/tech_qa_area.asp?id=8</a>
03-24-2002, 08:15 AM
#13
There sure is some great info in this topic. Another small item: The 1995 993's do not have the OBDII stuff (that came in 1996). So, they are easier to modify to some degree.
It sure seems to me that the later 964's might be some of the most bulletproof, modern 911's that were built. Every fault of the 964 series (except maybe the $12 distributor vent kit on some '93's) was correct by Porsche by 1993. The problem is finding one of these cars since they built so few of them...
Randall: Did you ever find out if more owner's experienced the hydralic lifter failure that you posted about on the 993 board awhile back?
Jay
90 964
It sure seems to me that the later 964's might be some of the most bulletproof, modern 911's that were built. Every fault of the 964 series (except maybe the $12 distributor vent kit on some '93's) was correct by Porsche by 1993. The problem is finding one of these cars since they built so few of them...
Randall: Did you ever find out if more owner's experienced the hydralic lifter failure that you posted about on the 993 board awhile back?
Jay
90 964
03-24-2002, 03:22 PM
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Hey Bill G ... thanks for the PCA tech-talk link. Interesting reading.
Here's the thread on early 993 bugs--including hydraulic lifters--Jay mentioned:
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/scripts/rennforums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=002183" target="_blank">Thread on Early 993 Bugs</a>
I wrote in this thread that I counted 6 cases of failed lifters in two earlier threads. I think 6 cases is a significant number for a relatively small sample pool--i.e., two threads off the rennlist 993 board. I'm expecting hydraulic lifter failure to be officially deemed a 993 "bug" sometime in the not so far off future. Perhaps by Bruce A.?
One more note on '96 993's. You may want to keep in mind that you'll incur an additional cost if you have serious plans to install performance software. None of the OBDII cars are "chip-able" in the conventional sense (you must send the unit to the tuner for the software install), and the '96 model cannot be chipped at all. Here's a thread on <a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/scripts/rennforums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=002764" target="_blank">options for "chipping"</a> a '96 993. Finally, all the OBDII cars are more expensive to "chip" than pre-OBDII cars.
Here's the thread on early 993 bugs--including hydraulic lifters--Jay mentioned:
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/scripts/rennforums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=002183" target="_blank">Thread on Early 993 Bugs</a>
I wrote in this thread that I counted 6 cases of failed lifters in two earlier threads. I think 6 cases is a significant number for a relatively small sample pool--i.e., two threads off the rennlist 993 board. I'm expecting hydraulic lifter failure to be officially deemed a 993 "bug" sometime in the not so far off future. Perhaps by Bruce A.?
One more note on '96 993's. You may want to keep in mind that you'll incur an additional cost if you have serious plans to install performance software. None of the OBDII cars are "chip-able" in the conventional sense (you must send the unit to the tuner for the software install), and the '96 model cannot be chipped at all. Here's a thread on <a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/scripts/rennforums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=002764" target="_blank">options for "chipping"</a> a '96 993. Finally, all the OBDII cars are more expensive to "chip" than pre-OBDII cars.
03-24-2002, 05:06 PM
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Thanks everyone, I'm really feeling the love here 
Between the two forums, 20 replies
Again, I'll put the same post in both forums. I'm not trying to start a flame war, as I'm very impressed by both cars and I'm sure my family would enjoy either <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
One interesting response asks which model means Porsche to me? As a prospective new owner, I guess I don't have any pre-conceived ideas that one car would scream Porsche and the other wouldn't.
A few interesting points that have been raised I'd like to pose as questions.
General: One comment made me think about the relative interior comfort (remember, my wife and I felt the 993 felt smaller inside). We '91 we sat in was a coupe (all the dealer had) while the '95 was a Cab. Could that be the difference?
964
A few people have mentioned flywheel issues, and cylinder sealing as chronic problems in the '90-'91 cars. Are these reasons enough to limit the search to '92s or should most of these be corrected (i.e. were they actual recalls?)by now? Also, when were the AC systems upgraded to R-134?
Does everyone pretty much agree that a header/exhaust pkg (must be smog legal)would add 15 HP? If so, that and a performance chip would probably do the job.
993
A couple of folks have mentioned wiring and lifter problems on the '95 model. Again, are these chronic problems, should most have been corrected, or should I exclude the '95 from consideration?
And finally financially, do you think the 993s will retain value better as the last of the air cooled models?
Between the two forums, 20 replies Again, I'll put the same post in both forums. I'm not trying to start a flame war, as I'm very impressed by both cars and I'm sure my family would enjoy either <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
One interesting response asks which model means Porsche to me? As a prospective new owner, I guess I don't have any pre-conceived ideas that one car would scream Porsche and the other wouldn't.
A few interesting points that have been raised I'd like to pose as questions.
General: One comment made me think about the relative interior comfort (remember, my wife and I felt the 993 felt smaller inside). We '91 we sat in was a coupe (all the dealer had) while the '95 was a Cab. Could that be the difference?
964
A few people have mentioned flywheel issues, and cylinder sealing as chronic problems in the '90-'91 cars. Are these reasons enough to limit the search to '92s or should most of these be corrected (i.e. were they actual recalls?)by now? Also, when were the AC systems upgraded to R-134?
Does everyone pretty much agree that a header/exhaust pkg (must be smog legal)would add 15 HP? If so, that and a performance chip would probably do the job.
993
A couple of folks have mentioned wiring and lifter problems on the '95 model. Again, are these chronic problems, should most have been corrected, or should I exclude the '95 from consideration?
And finally financially, do you think the 993s will retain value better as the last of the air cooled models?