964 or 993?
03-24-2002, 09:31 PM
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>One comment made me think about the relative interior comfort (remember, my wife and I felt the 993 felt smaller inside). We '91 we sat in was a coupe (all the dealer had) while the '95 was a Cab. Could that be the difference?
They are really the same car as far as interior dimensions go, so the Cab. must be the difference.
>A few people have mentioned flywheel issues, and cylinder sealing as chronic problems in the '90-'91 cars. Are these reasons enough to limit the search to '92s or should most of these be corrected (i.e. were they actual recalls?)by now?
Although not official factory recalls, the fixes are effective and permanent, so you'll just want to make sure they've been implemented. If you can't determine if the flywheel has been updated with the LUK, see if you can have $1k or more knocked off the asking price as a "down payment" towards any future repair. If the heads are dry, even though the update hasn't been performed, you are probably okay. Up to you .... only a small percentage of the cars leaked, and I can't see ripping into an otherwise fine motor to perform an update that may never be needed.
>Does everyone pretty much agree that a header/exhaust pkg (must be smog legal)would add 15 HP? If so, that and a performance chip would probably do the job.
The only true--albeit, still pending--smog legal system is the GHL system. GHL claims the system is just as effective as non-cat systems. I'm not aware of any non-GHL dyno tests. But, the system is rather similar to the 993's layout, so I suspect is should be as effective. Also, GHL has a solid reputation, so one would like to believe they wouldn't tarnish this reputation by selling snake oil. I personally plan on installing this system on my car once it receives C.A.R.B. certification.
Another (challenging) option is to convert the 993 exhaust system to fit your 964, as Kevin of the NW has done.
>A couple of folks have mentioned wiring and lifter problems on the '95 model. Again, are these chronic problems, should most have been corrected, or should I exclude the '95 from consideration?
I'm sure there are lots of '95 owners that would tell you this is a problem that can be dealt with, and many owners that have never had the problem. I think the tricky part may be diagnosing when the wiring harness is a problem ... I've read of all sorts of weird gremlins that were eventually traced to the wiring harness.
The local expert on this subject is E.J. Lots of information at his website:
<a href="http://www.pcarracing.homestead.com/" target="_blank">E.J.'s Website</a>
Based on what I've of read on the 993 board, the lifter problem applies to all 993 model years.
>And finally financially, do you think the 993s will retain value better as the last of the air cooled models?
Tough question. The 993 is the final iteration of the air-cooled Porsche, so that should bode well for its resale value. On the other hand, the 964 depreciation curve is probably flatter. In particular, they are much closer to the "magical" $20k level, where 911 depreciation has historically slowed to a crawl. I would think the later model 993s have a lot more to lose. Then (once) again, they really are the last of the air-cooled Porsches, so this may keep their values propped up. Who knows ...
They are really the same car as far as interior dimensions go, so the Cab. must be the difference.
>A few people have mentioned flywheel issues, and cylinder sealing as chronic problems in the '90-'91 cars. Are these reasons enough to limit the search to '92s or should most of these be corrected (i.e. were they actual recalls?)by now?
Although not official factory recalls, the fixes are effective and permanent, so you'll just want to make sure they've been implemented. If you can't determine if the flywheel has been updated with the LUK, see if you can have $1k or more knocked off the asking price as a "down payment" towards any future repair. If the heads are dry, even though the update hasn't been performed, you are probably okay. Up to you .... only a small percentage of the cars leaked, and I can't see ripping into an otherwise fine motor to perform an update that may never be needed.
>Does everyone pretty much agree that a header/exhaust pkg (must be smog legal)would add 15 HP? If so, that and a performance chip would probably do the job.
The only true--albeit, still pending--smog legal system is the GHL system. GHL claims the system is just as effective as non-cat systems. I'm not aware of any non-GHL dyno tests. But, the system is rather similar to the 993's layout, so I suspect is should be as effective. Also, GHL has a solid reputation, so one would like to believe they wouldn't tarnish this reputation by selling snake oil. I personally plan on installing this system on my car once it receives C.A.R.B. certification.
Another (challenging) option is to convert the 993 exhaust system to fit your 964, as Kevin of the NW has done.
>A couple of folks have mentioned wiring and lifter problems on the '95 model. Again, are these chronic problems, should most have been corrected, or should I exclude the '95 from consideration?
I'm sure there are lots of '95 owners that would tell you this is a problem that can be dealt with, and many owners that have never had the problem. I think the tricky part may be diagnosing when the wiring harness is a problem ... I've read of all sorts of weird gremlins that were eventually traced to the wiring harness.
The local expert on this subject is E.J. Lots of information at his website:
<a href="http://www.pcarracing.homestead.com/" target="_blank">E.J.'s Website</a>
Based on what I've of read on the 993 board, the lifter problem applies to all 993 model years.
>And finally financially, do you think the 993s will retain value better as the last of the air cooled models?
Tough question. The 993 is the final iteration of the air-cooled Porsche, so that should bode well for its resale value. On the other hand, the 964 depreciation curve is probably flatter. In particular, they are much closer to the "magical" $20k level, where 911 depreciation has historically slowed to a crawl. I would think the later model 993s have a lot more to lose. Then (once) again, they really are the last of the air-cooled Porsches, so this may keep their values propped up. Who knows ...
03-25-2002, 01:12 AM
#17
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shark,
Being in the automobile biz. all I can say is "never" buy a car for resale value. buy it for your "own" reasons. I think others will agree, this past year has been a very "nasty" year for 993's in regards to resale.
Being in the automobile biz. all I can say is "never" buy a car for resale value. buy it for your "own" reasons. I think others will agree, this past year has been a very "nasty" year for 993's in regards to resale.
03-25-2002, 03:33 AM
#18
Shark01:
Just to clarify things that I pointed out in my previous post, the cylinder head issue is really limited for the most part to pre-'91 models...you need to check the engine serial numbers. Even so, most of the earlier 964s didn't have this problem. It's an oddity that occurs to some, but when it occurs it costs a lot of money to fix. This is why people are scared of it.
As far as the Freudenberg flywheel goes, that IS problematic, but once again it's statistical in nature. Freudenberg was either forced or elected to improve the quality control on the the 964 series as time passed. There are people out there with 100K or more miles on their Freudenbergs, and others that had to replace them before they had 20K miles on them. The odds are good that if the car was built PRIOR to a factory installed LUK, it may have been changed already. To replace a Freudenberg with a LUK will cost you a little more than a clutch job....most of the cost is labor plus the additional cost of a LUK flywheel. It's NOT as price intensive as an early 964 with a leaking cylinder.
I don't know if I would really go as far as saying both of these problems are really chronic by any means.
Check the records on ANY car you intend to buy, and this applies to ANYTHING. If the records aren't there and the car is in the "probelmatic" range of production, I would just assume the worst and try to negotiate the price down.
Good Luck,
Bill Wagner
Just to clarify things that I pointed out in my previous post, the cylinder head issue is really limited for the most part to pre-'91 models...you need to check the engine serial numbers. Even so, most of the earlier 964s didn't have this problem. It's an oddity that occurs to some, but when it occurs it costs a lot of money to fix. This is why people are scared of it.
As far as the Freudenberg flywheel goes, that IS problematic, but once again it's statistical in nature. Freudenberg was either forced or elected to improve the quality control on the the 964 series as time passed. There are people out there with 100K or more miles on their Freudenbergs, and others that had to replace them before they had 20K miles on them. The odds are good that if the car was built PRIOR to a factory installed LUK, it may have been changed already. To replace a Freudenberg with a LUK will cost you a little more than a clutch job....most of the cost is labor plus the additional cost of a LUK flywheel. It's NOT as price intensive as an early 964 with a leaking cylinder.
I don't know if I would really go as far as saying both of these problems are really chronic by any means.
Check the records on ANY car you intend to buy, and this applies to ANYTHING. If the records aren't there and the car is in the "probelmatic" range of production, I would just assume the worst and try to negotiate the price down.
Good Luck,
Bill Wagner
03-25-2002, 03:53 PM
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I have one minor point to add: the 993 may have seemed smaller if it had the "hi-fi" audio package, which includes bulky enclosures in the doors for speakers. To my knowledge, this option was not available on 964's.
03-25-2002, 06:35 PM
#20
Re the hydraulic valve adjustment, while I understand the ease associated therewith and the reduced cost of adjustment, I wonder why Porsche factory race motors do not use the hydraulic part! Could it be that it is less reliable at high RPM for extended periods?
03-26-2002, 12:38 AM
#21
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Shark01,
Also remember, you lose the rear seats on the 964 cabs from '92-'94. They re-appeared on the 993 when Porsche solved the US 3 point rear belt law. I just bought a '91 964 cab for crusin' with the family & have a '90 964 track car. I had a '96 993 for a couple of years before the kiddo came along. They are both great cars. The 993 has the best lookin' tail end but, the 964 is classic 911 looks with the modern drive-ability of the 993. My 2 cts(and that's about all it's worth) '96 993 if it's your everyday driver, '91 964 if you are buying for occasional use. Good Luck!
Also remember, you lose the rear seats on the 964 cabs from '92-'94. They re-appeared on the 993 when Porsche solved the US 3 point rear belt law. I just bought a '91 964 cab for crusin' with the family & have a '90 964 track car. I had a '96 993 for a couple of years before the kiddo came along. They are both great cars. The 993 has the best lookin' tail end but, the 964 is classic 911 looks with the modern drive-ability of the 993. My 2 cts(and that's about all it's worth) '96 993 if it's your everyday driver, '91 964 if you are buying for occasional use. Good Luck!
03-26-2002, 01:10 PM
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[quote] this past year has been a very "nasty" year for 993's in regards to resale. <hr></blockquote>
Phil
Not here in the UK.
Late 993's especially low mileage widebody cars in a strong colour are now selling for more than early 996's
Early, low spec cars with high mileages and in a nasty colour (yellow or white) needless to say are cheap.
Phil
Not here in the UK.
Late 993's especially low mileage widebody cars in a strong colour are now selling for more than early 996's
Early, low spec cars with high mileages and in a nasty colour (yellow or white) needless to say are cheap.
03-26-2002, 04:07 PM
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After gathering all the information, sorting out the opinions, and discussing our family needs and how much the car will be driven, I think that spending the added $10k for a 993 would be the best thing for me.......so what if I have to knock over an extra bank 
Thanks everyone, you've all done very well
Thanks everyone, you've all done very well
03-27-2002, 11:33 AM
#25
Burning Brakes
Hey Shark, I'm in Houston as well. Feel free to contact me if you need info on local mechanics and dealers as well as local driving events (autocross, DE, etc.).
Drew
92 C2
Drew
92 C2
