Whats the big deal about RS?
06-29-2002, 07:15 PM
#3
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>>Because people will pay it.>>
Well, yes. But any price point is the result of a demand curve *and* a supply curve. The supply of RSAs was 700+/-. Production of non-RSA 964s numbered in the tens of thousands.
FWIW.
Well, yes. But any price point is the result of a demand curve *and* a supply curve. The supply of RSAs was 700+/-. Production of non-RSA 964s numbered in the tens of thousands.
FWIW.
06-29-2002, 08:51 PM
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I don't want to offend anybody but the RS America is basically a cheaper version of the regular C2. Not so the European RS which was more a performance version. It's just hype in my opinion.
06-29-2002, 09:42 PM
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Call the RSA "hype" if you want, but it came standard with the 030 suspension, 17" wheels with 205s in front and 255s in the rear, was marginally lighter (no rear seats, lightweight door trim, no sound insulation, no power steering), and it cost $10,000 *less* than a std C2 off the showroom floor. For these reasons, it was the version that made the most sense for those buyers who were concerned with tracking/auto-xing their new Porsches and were unconcerned with luxury bits.
Noone will dispute the fact that the Euro RS was a true performance variant, intended for competition homologation. However, it's noteworthy that the Euro RS cost about $20,000 (USD equivalent) *more* than a std C2 off the showroom floor.
Shift forward to today. It no longer makes sense to buy an RSA if your primary concern is the track. C2s are inexpensive relative to RSAs, and you can spend the difference in price on significant performance enhancements that surpass the standard items on the RSA.
Now, it seems that the RSA is attractive because it will protect your money better than a std C2 which seems to suffer from the inexplicable "red-headed-stepchild" syndrome.
...Oh, and the rear spoiler on the RSA is way cooler looking.
IMHO.
Noone will dispute the fact that the Euro RS was a true performance variant, intended for competition homologation. However, it's noteworthy that the Euro RS cost about $20,000 (USD equivalent) *more* than a std C2 off the showroom floor.
Shift forward to today. It no longer makes sense to buy an RSA if your primary concern is the track. C2s are inexpensive relative to RSAs, and you can spend the difference in price on significant performance enhancements that surpass the standard items on the RSA.
Now, it seems that the RSA is attractive because it will protect your money better than a std C2 which seems to suffer from the inexplicable "red-headed-stepchild" syndrome.
...Oh, and the rear spoiler on the RSA is way cooler looking.
IMHO.
06-30-2002, 05:26 AM
#6
Burning Brakes
Don't forget that RS Americas are "seam-welded", have the 964 Turbo brakes, a front stabilizer bar, some have the 40% LSD option, and ohhhhh those seats...
Although not the European RS, the RS America is certainly a performance version of the C2 by anyone's standards. For those of you who haven't driven an RS America, yes it IS quite noticeable.
Although the RS America may have cost less money new than a C2 in the US, I would NOT say that it is a "cheaper" version of the C2. Rather, I would say that the luxury items (leather seats, rear seats, radios, a/c, power steering and sunroof) were removed in favor of the previously mentioned performance related options.
The lower MSRP of an RS America was not a function of cost.... In 1993, when the RS America's were being sold, many of Porsche's customers were affluent, wealthy individuals who were more interested in owning reputation, status (or pure unadulterated sex-appeal) than owning a pure sportscar. As stated in a previous message, supply and demand curves happen. At the time, the demand for the creature comforts far outweighed the demand for rock-hard suspension, no air conditioning, no sunroof, and no radio. Greater demand leads to greater price. Of course that has all changed now... not because the C2 is a lesser car than the RS America, but rather because there are only 700 (+/-) RS America's in existence for the demand of tens of thousands (or more?) of people who want to drive a Porsche that is committed more to performance than luxury.
Of course, one could upgrade a C2 to RS America component specs - maybe even for less money than an equivalent RS America costs (???). However, you still wouldn't own a limited production Porsche. But then again, that may not be important to you...
To each their own.
Personally, I fell head over heels in love with 964's after driving them. It just happened to be that I most loved the performance of the cars, and the RS Americas provided more of that performance. I'm very proud to own a 1993 Porsche 911, and I'm even more proud to own an RS America.
Happy driving!
Although not the European RS, the RS America is certainly a performance version of the C2 by anyone's standards. For those of you who haven't driven an RS America, yes it IS quite noticeable.
Although the RS America may have cost less money new than a C2 in the US, I would NOT say that it is a "cheaper" version of the C2. Rather, I would say that the luxury items (leather seats, rear seats, radios, a/c, power steering and sunroof) were removed in favor of the previously mentioned performance related options.
The lower MSRP of an RS America was not a function of cost.... In 1993, when the RS America's were being sold, many of Porsche's customers were affluent, wealthy individuals who were more interested in owning reputation, status (or pure unadulterated sex-appeal) than owning a pure sportscar. As stated in a previous message, supply and demand curves happen. At the time, the demand for the creature comforts far outweighed the demand for rock-hard suspension, no air conditioning, no sunroof, and no radio. Greater demand leads to greater price. Of course that has all changed now... not because the C2 is a lesser car than the RS America, but rather because there are only 700 (+/-) RS America's in existence for the demand of tens of thousands (or more?) of people who want to drive a Porsche that is committed more to performance than luxury.
Of course, one could upgrade a C2 to RS America component specs - maybe even for less money than an equivalent RS America costs (???). However, you still wouldn't own a limited production Porsche. But then again, that may not be important to you...
To each their own.
Personally, I fell head over heels in love with 964's after driving them. It just happened to be that I most loved the performance of the cars, and the RS Americas provided more of that performance. I'm very proud to own a 1993 Porsche 911, and I'm even more proud to own an RS America.
Happy driving!
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06-30-2002, 08:56 AM
#8
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[quote]<strong>Don't forget that RS Americas are "seam-welded", have the 964 Turbo brakes, a front stabilizer bar, some have the 40% LSD option, and ohhhhh those seats...
I would say that the luxury items (leather seats, rear seats, radios, a/c, power steering and sunroof) were removed in favor of the previously mentioned performance related options. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't believe the RS America's were seam welded like the Carrera RS's (The factory manual has a section specifically showing the extra seam welds on the Carrera RS - don't recall them including the RS America in that discussion). RS America's did not come with Turbo brakes, they came with the same brakes as the C2/C4. All C2's and C4's have stabilizer bars, although the thickness can vary between models. The 40% limited slip was optional on all C2's. While there were only, I believe, 6 options available on the RSA's, many are optioned out with sunroof and air conditioning.
If you want to see an excellent, detailed, comparison between the stock 964's, RSA, Carrera RS, and US Cup Car, Bob Gagnon wrote an article ("Lightweight Carrera Confusion", if I remember the title correctly) that originally appeared in the PCA magazine Panorama, and has been reprinted in the Up-Fixin series, either Vol 9 or 10.
I would say that the luxury items (leather seats, rear seats, radios, a/c, power steering and sunroof) were removed in favor of the previously mentioned performance related options. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't believe the RS America's were seam welded like the Carrera RS's (The factory manual has a section specifically showing the extra seam welds on the Carrera RS - don't recall them including the RS America in that discussion). RS America's did not come with Turbo brakes, they came with the same brakes as the C2/C4. All C2's and C4's have stabilizer bars, although the thickness can vary between models. The 40% limited slip was optional on all C2's. While there were only, I believe, 6 options available on the RSA's, many are optioned out with sunroof and air conditioning.
If you want to see an excellent, detailed, comparison between the stock 964's, RSA, Carrera RS, and US Cup Car, Bob Gagnon wrote an article ("Lightweight Carrera Confusion", if I remember the title correctly) that originally appeared in the PCA magazine Panorama, and has been reprinted in the Up-Fixin series, either Vol 9 or 10.
07-01-2002, 12:27 PM
#9
Racer
High,
One major problem w/ the RSA is that the top doesn't go down! <img src="graemlins/oops.gif" border="0" alt="[oops]" />
ps. for the serious guys, that was a joke.
One major problem w/ the RSA is that the top doesn't go down! <img src="graemlins/oops.gif" border="0" alt="[oops]" />
ps. for the serious guys, that was a joke.
07-01-2002, 03:10 PM
#11
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The 356 Speedster was introduced as a cheaper, bare bones 356 (under $3000 at the time). Whatever happened to them anyway?
There has been considerable discussion about the early 200 or so RSAs (built through summer '92) having left-over seam welded RS bodies. These also had the rear fender lips rolled at the factory. My RSA (#146) is one of those, but I didn't know that when I bought it.
There should be no significant difference in performance between a stock RSA (if any still exist) and other '93 C2s with the M030 sport suspension and wider wheels (assuming they aren't heavily loaded with other options).
Special or limited editions of various kinds seem to eventually hold a 10-15% market value advantage over their almost identical bretheren. Dealer's were dumping the un-optioned RSAs for less than dealer cost about ten years ago. Now those seem to be the most desirable ones. Maybe the USA is ready for a 996 RSA.
There has been considerable discussion about the early 200 or so RSAs (built through summer '92) having left-over seam welded RS bodies. These also had the rear fender lips rolled at the factory. My RSA (#146) is one of those, but I didn't know that when I bought it.
There should be no significant difference in performance between a stock RSA (if any still exist) and other '93 C2s with the M030 sport suspension and wider wheels (assuming they aren't heavily loaded with other options).
Special or limited editions of various kinds seem to eventually hold a 10-15% market value advantage over their almost identical bretheren. Dealer's were dumping the un-optioned RSAs for less than dealer cost about ten years ago. Now those seem to be the most desirable ones. Maybe the USA is ready for a 996 RSA.
07-01-2002, 04:51 PM
#12
Burning Brakes
I still smile when I hear people refer to the RS America as a "low-cost" version of the C2... Especially considering the the M030 sport suspension package which included the use of much of the running gear from the 911 C2 Turbo. The Turbo's progressively wound coil springs, larger diameter front stabilizer bar and upgraded shock absorbers that were standard equipment for the RS America. As were 17 inch C2 Turbo wheels.
07-01-2002, 06:48 PM
#13
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[quote] Wonder what the value would be if Porsche would have called it 911 C2 L (for low cost) instead RSA. <hr></blockquote>
That's a good question.
...probably a few thousand dollars more than a 91 C2 Convertible tip.
That's a good question.
...probably a few thousand dollars more than a 91 C2 Convertible tip.
07-01-2002, 09:04 PM
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True. I paid for mine under 20 K US with the cam o-rings leaking and fixed it myself, bought a nice set of 18 inch wheels and did some performance enhancements for the money I saved. I am happy that Porsche did not put the M030 springs in the C2. I have a set in my basement (and it will stay there). What I like about the RSA: rear spoiler, rims, name, What I don't like: cloth interior inc. thin carpet, no sunroof, harsh suspension, no power steering, no rear seats. Weight saving is just 130 pounds compared to the Carrera 2. Have you ever seen a European Carrera 2 RS? Now we are talking.
07-01-2002, 09:26 PM
#15
Burning Brakes
Christian,
I hate to be the one to tell you this, but the European RS has: cloth interior inc. thin carpet, no sunroof, harsh suspension, no power steering, no rear seats.... all the things that you hate about RS America's.
It sounds like you found a great deal on your Cabriolet Tiptronic, however. Congratulations. I hope you enjoy it as much as I enjoy my RSA. Again... to each his own.
I hate to be the one to tell you this, but the European RS has: cloth interior inc. thin carpet, no sunroof, harsh suspension, no power steering, no rear seats.... all the things that you hate about RS America's.
It sounds like you found a great deal on your Cabriolet Tiptronic, however. Congratulations. I hope you enjoy it as much as I enjoy my RSA. Again... to each his own.