Singer's really ramping up production
11-10-2017, 02:23 PM
#46
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Maybe someone richer and cleverer than I is buying up all the parts that Singer remove, so in the future, when the bubble bursts, he can make a fortune restoring the Singer's back to a standard Carrera 2's? Food for thought. 
11-10-2017, 02:31 PM
#47
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If Singer stays in business long enough, they may re-create 964 body-shells from brand new materials and current weld technology. Ford licensed "Blueprints" of their 60's mustangs.
Before purists bash this idea, it may be feasible for Singer, and for those who wish to save the remaining 964 in their original condition.
Interesting:
http://www.mustangandfords.com/proje...lacement-body/
Before purists bash this idea, it may be feasible for Singer, and for those who wish to save the remaining 964 in their original condition.
Interesting:
http://www.mustangandfords.com/proje...lacement-body/
From Jalopnik:
this shell is the product of known Porsche sheetmetal supplier JP/Dansk, though the company does not seem to have released any official statement or pricing guide. That makes me want to hedge the report by reminding you this might be a “concept” or strict demonstration piece to tease customers about what might be possible.
11-10-2017, 05:32 PM
#49
The very fact that they have a ~150 car backorder makes this readily apparent.
The tooling and facility needed to not only stamp a few dozen different pieces of steel but to assemble them into a shell would be a multi-million dollar investment. At the rate Singer produces their cars it would take a few centuries or millenia for return on such a business venture.
Additionally, at that investment the shell arguably should be redesigned to reflect modern steel (in some cases of poorer alloy than prior). With computer technology the torsional rigidity and crashworthiness could be greatly improved. In terms of the latter, the pillars and sills are probably the weak points of the chassis. (Amongst other things, IIRC the shell's diminishing ability to meet predicted future crashworthiness tests is one reason the original shell was finally retired in 1998).
Not only those things, but there are major legal hurdles associated with producing new shells. If they are producing new shells but slapping old VINs on them, I think that is quite illegal. So you need a new VIN issued by a governing body for such. For that, I think Singer would need to become at the very least a registered kit car supplier/builder.
Oh, and Porsche would need to license it!
I am not saying fully approved shells shouldn't be created, just that the feasibility is much more difficult than it may seem. (FWIW, I do not have any association with Singer)
Looks like it's already been created... (though not a 964 shell)
Originally Posted by Jalopnik
this shell is the product of known Porsche sheetmetal supplier JP/Dansk, though the company does not seem to have released any official statement or pricing guide. That makes me want to hedge the report by reminding you this might be a “concept” or strict demonstration piece to tease customers about what might be possible.
As I recall, it is meant to showcase the fitment of their products with an original shell.
There are certain allowances to 'repair' an existing a shell, but cutting out a VIN and placing it elsewhere is not one of them.
_
Last edited by FrenchToast; 03-09-2019 at 01:05 AM. Reason: VIN, clarification
11-10-2017, 10:13 PM
#50
SJW, a Carin' kinda guy
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Frenchtoast,
Link to the law that says you can’t replace a shell or chassis.
I know it’s not illegal for a chassis, maybe there is some law for a shell I am unaware of. Read the VIN laws too. The interesting ones are state level, but generally if something that has a VIN is beyond repair, you can replace it, some states will even stamp the old VIN on for you or let you do it. It’s illegal to take the VIN off one car and put it on another, but rebuilding a car with new and used/refurbished parts is a different story. Your very own ship of Theseus.
PS It’s pretty clear singer is restoring “reimagining” 964 because they don’t want to be a manufacturer because then they have to meet all new car regs (impossible). To do that, you need a donor vehicle.
Link to the law that says you can’t replace a shell or chassis.
I know it’s not illegal for a chassis, maybe there is some law for a shell I am unaware of. Read the VIN laws too. The interesting ones are state level, but generally if something that has a VIN is beyond repair, you can replace it, some states will even stamp the old VIN on for you or let you do it. It’s illegal to take the VIN off one car and put it on another, but rebuilding a car with new and used/refurbished parts is a different story. Your very own ship of Theseus.
PS It’s pretty clear singer is restoring “reimagining” 964 because they don’t want to be a manufacturer because then they have to meet all new car regs (impossible). To do that, you need a donor vehicle.
11-11-2017, 09:09 AM
#53
Racer
When is Singer going to take on a Cabrio? I would love to see that and jump on the increased value gravy train. I have a removable hardtop now that I use in the summer when it's too hot here in Florida and I love the coupe look. But now when it's cool I love being able to put the top down. I'd love to see a Singer convertible with a hardtop option.
11-11-2017, 09:45 AM
#54
Rennlist Member
Unless Singer is hiding something, they have neither the manpower nor capital to do something like that.
The very fact that they have a ~150 car backorder makes this readily apparent.
The tooling and facility needed to not only stamp a few dozen different pieces of steel but to assemble them into a shell would be a multi-million dollar investment. At the rate Singer produces their cars it would take a few centuries or millenia for return on such a business venture.
The very fact that they have a ~150 car backorder makes this readily apparent.
The tooling and facility needed to not only stamp a few dozen different pieces of steel but to assemble them into a shell would be a multi-million dollar investment. At the rate Singer produces their cars it would take a few centuries or millenia for return on such a business venture.
11-11-2017, 11:05 AM
#56
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I would think that with the numbers being charged they should be making at a minimum of $200k per car. Especially extras like nickel plated rear bumperettes for $4k when these parts can't cost more than a few hundred to make. That should add up quickly enough to do but as you stated why bother.
I would think that with the numbers being charged they should be making at a minimum of $200k per car. Especially extras like nickel plated rear bumperettes for $4k when these parts can't cost more than a few hundred to make. That should add up quickly enough to do but as you stated why bother.
11-11-2017, 11:51 AM
#57
Frenchtoast,
Link to the law that says you can’t replace a shell or chassis.
I know it’s not illegal for a chassis, maybe there is some law for a shell I am unaware of. Read the VIN laws too. The interesting ones are state level, but generally if something that has a VIN is beyond repair, you can replace it, some states will even stamp the old VIN on for you or let you do it. It’s illegal to take the VIN off one car and put it on another, but rebuilding a car with new and used/refurbished parts is a different story. Your very own ship of Theseus.
PS It’s pretty clear singer is restoring “reimagining” 964 because they don’t want to be a manufacturer because then they have to meet all new car regs (impossible). To do that, you need a donor vehicle.
Link to the law that says you can’t replace a shell or chassis.
I know it’s not illegal for a chassis, maybe there is some law for a shell I am unaware of. Read the VIN laws too. The interesting ones are state level, but generally if something that has a VIN is beyond repair, you can replace it, some states will even stamp the old VIN on for you or let you do it. It’s illegal to take the VIN off one car and put it on another, but rebuilding a car with new and used/refurbished parts is a different story. Your very own ship of Theseus.
PS It’s pretty clear singer is restoring “reimagining” 964 because they don’t want to be a manufacturer because then they have to meet all new car regs (impossible). To do that, you need a donor vehicle.
I don't have any links, and it sounds like you know more than I about this. (Feel free to further correct me!)
Thanks for your insight. I've clarified my post a bit.
11-11-2017, 12:42 PM
#59
Since the discussion was about a new shell, I was assuming (perhaps wrongly) that the theory was to cut out an original VIN and place it on a newly constructed shell. From my understanding this is illegal, however I could be wrong? Maybe it is a 'rebuilding' clause? I don't profess to know legalities of VIN rebuilding what I wrote has just been my understanding.
11-11-2017, 04:01 PM
#60
Rennlist Member
I was saying an easy $200k and I was being conservative. That's labor and everything included. I know people that do CF work for the Americas cup yachts and can easily make full body panels for not all that much. No doubt many man hours and attention to detail although I have no doubt they have a large portion of their staff that does not make all that much. The money is in the R&D and tooling but once made the rest is straight forward. I would venture that the engine is the most expensive part with the best building them. I can easily gather the talent to do the rest and I know what it would cost me. Maybe they do things differently in CA.