My expericences- MAP 2, Tial 38mm, Profec, 55#
10-02-2003, 01:29 PM
#1
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My expericences- MAP 2, Tial 38mm, Profec, 55#
Here is a summary of my recent GURU MAP 2 kit, 55# injector, wastegate and EBC controller experiences. I have had my latest S for about 2 months and spent forever deciding on an upgrade plan. I went for something easily upgradeable and something I could tune myself. The next step for me will probably a K27/6 or hybrid.
Boost Control:
First off, I installed a Profec B spec II and a Tial 38mm wastegate. The Profec has been discussed before but I will add that I originally installed it with a stock wategate and it was difficult to set up to give stable boost. Understandable because the stock wastegate is really not up to much. I had the solenoid and attached to the bulkhead behind the inlet manifold and it could be heard clearly in the car. Installation on the tial 38mm was a complete pain in the ***. Those infamous bolts high up in the tunnel were hard to get at. A ‘toolstring’ comprising of multiple extension bars and joints did the trick. Then I discovered that the original wastegate hanger bracket could not be used to support the tial. I definitely did not want 30lbs of exhaust and wastegate unsupported so I spent some time fabricating a new hanger for the tial. Once it was in I re-plumbed the Profec and moved the solenoid to under the cruise control. The final result is rock sold boost control, two easily accessible boost limits (14/17psi) and no ticking noise from the solenoid. The boost hits very hard and holds to the red line. Very nice, and a big transformation in the cars character.
GURU MAP 2:
Now for the MAP. Delivery, yes it was a little late but arrived al together with a nice packing list and everything packed nicely. No guru flaming here please, I think there had been enough of that. The chips and FPR went in fine. Checked the car and it fired right up. Next the 55# injectors were installed, the DME FQS set to ‘1’ and the ballast resistors wired in. (did not get any instructions but worked out it was the gray/gray&blk wires at the DME). As far as wiring in the MAP box it was no big deal and the instructions were pretty clear. The one problem was that the guru instructions state to wire in the O2 sensor to the green/yellow wire on the MAP. This is actually the input for a AFM when using it as a piggyback and not the proper o2 input. I had to make a pin to go into the harness that accessed the right spade connector on the MAP box. Very frustrating. I found this out because instead of the AFMin stating ‘offline’ on the VOLTs page of the programmer, it was dithering, while the oxygen sensor page was dead…..Danno, got a few curse words over this…
The intake boost was removed and the j pipe was installed and temp sensor wired in. The j pipe was a challenge. It is just too damn big. I see little point is using a 4” filter neck when it caused so much clearance difficulty. My filer is on at an angle relative to the j pipeneck and is always threatening to pop off. I might cut off the transition piece and weld on my own 3” bend to eliminate clearance problems with the water tank, light pivot bracket and hood. Right now, it works or though once the filter had become permanently deformed.
Af far as running, out of the box, the MAP tuning was not too great in part throttle, idle etc. It was also too rich at boost. After reviewing previous posts from MAP users and studying OZ951’s procedure I set about tuning I am using a 1.8k resistor across the alt sensor to tune in open loop, it’s the only way to go. After a week of ‘on the fly ‘tuning and data logging, it now runs great. Starts right up, idles great and has excellent part throttle drivability. I am almost close to finished on the narrow band and will head for the dyno soon. There are many, many permutations of adjustments that make a significant difference to the way the MAP runs. Right out of the box, it ran like shi*. Jumpy throttle, harsh throttle transition, soggy throttle response. After tuning only with an o2 sensor and data logging, it is a whole new car. As far as overall power I though I could never be scared shi*less by a K26/8. Running at 18psi on a cool day this car absolutely flys! It is fast. It feels like it would destroy my old (new) E46 M3. Can't wait to get a better turbo.
I have studied both 14psi and 18psi zones and have them now where they read on little on the rich side with the stock o2 sensor (~.89-.9 volts). Until I get on a dyno I am leaving it there. I love the fact that you can work in very small areas of the fuel/load curve without the interpolation spilling over too far. I have had numerous split second MAFs and tuning was always a compromise between idle, part and WOT. With the MAP, it is no longer so. I now have steady idle (zones 205, 305). Good starting (zones 600, 500, 505, 405). Great part throttle at any RPM (much adjustment in the 200 and 300 rows) and absolutely great control over WOT fueling (row 800’s for 14psi and 900 for 18psi).
The minor issues still to iron out are sometimes a lag in response when being abrupt with the throttle. 90% of the time you can’t tell unless your looking for it. I noticed that the air/fuel would go momentarily lean when the throttle is stabbed so I analyzed the logs while purposefully inducing these conditions. The interesting thing was that the log showed the MAP was actually always in right zone during abrupt throttle openings. For example, if cruising along at 3000rpm under light load I would be in zone 330. Now stab the throttle and sure enough without delay the MAP would jump to zone 630-730 corresponding with the increase in TPS voltage (recorded throttle position). The VECU (or fuel signal out) would also instantly jump up. However, the o2 sensor voltage recorded would indeed show a momentary lean condition. Not sure where this is coming from. Maybe Danno can speak to the interpolation characteristics of the MAP when jumping across large zone groups. Based on the data logs though, it looks like the MAP box keeps right on top of fuel signal under these transient conditions with no apparent breaks or lags in output.
So all in all I am currently happy. This thing makes serious power compared to my previous APE2 15psi set up (as would most AFM replacement upgrades with bigger injectors and higher boost).
I am also very much a tinkerer and like the level of adjustability the MAP gives over specific operating conditions without skewing any another settings. Love the simple data logging interface also. If you are planning on getting a GURU MAP, my advice would be , get ready to get right into the tuning aspect cos in my experience you need to.
For me, its not been ‘plug and play’ , rather ‘plug, tune, tune tune, and then play!. Once set up though they are very nice and maybe there are a few minor idiosyncrasies. But I will take these any day for the level of hands on, super precise tunability it gives me. Also, you MUST have the programmer and serial link.
P.S.
For the data log output, does anyone have conversion factors for TPS to get a % and VECU to get the 0-5v range in excel. Also, what is the’GAIN’ value in the dumps?)
Boost Control:
First off, I installed a Profec B spec II and a Tial 38mm wastegate. The Profec has been discussed before but I will add that I originally installed it with a stock wategate and it was difficult to set up to give stable boost. Understandable because the stock wastegate is really not up to much. I had the solenoid and attached to the bulkhead behind the inlet manifold and it could be heard clearly in the car. Installation on the tial 38mm was a complete pain in the ***. Those infamous bolts high up in the tunnel were hard to get at. A ‘toolstring’ comprising of multiple extension bars and joints did the trick. Then I discovered that the original wastegate hanger bracket could not be used to support the tial. I definitely did not want 30lbs of exhaust and wastegate unsupported so I spent some time fabricating a new hanger for the tial. Once it was in I re-plumbed the Profec and moved the solenoid to under the cruise control. The final result is rock sold boost control, two easily accessible boost limits (14/17psi) and no ticking noise from the solenoid. The boost hits very hard and holds to the red line. Very nice, and a big transformation in the cars character.
GURU MAP 2:
Now for the MAP. Delivery, yes it was a little late but arrived al together with a nice packing list and everything packed nicely. No guru flaming here please, I think there had been enough of that. The chips and FPR went in fine. Checked the car and it fired right up. Next the 55# injectors were installed, the DME FQS set to ‘1’ and the ballast resistors wired in. (did not get any instructions but worked out it was the gray/gray&blk wires at the DME). As far as wiring in the MAP box it was no big deal and the instructions were pretty clear. The one problem was that the guru instructions state to wire in the O2 sensor to the green/yellow wire on the MAP. This is actually the input for a AFM when using it as a piggyback and not the proper o2 input. I had to make a pin to go into the harness that accessed the right spade connector on the MAP box. Very frustrating. I found this out because instead of the AFMin stating ‘offline’ on the VOLTs page of the programmer, it was dithering, while the oxygen sensor page was dead…..Danno, got a few curse words over this…
The intake boost was removed and the j pipe was installed and temp sensor wired in. The j pipe was a challenge. It is just too damn big. I see little point is using a 4” filter neck when it caused so much clearance difficulty. My filer is on at an angle relative to the j pipeneck and is always threatening to pop off. I might cut off the transition piece and weld on my own 3” bend to eliminate clearance problems with the water tank, light pivot bracket and hood. Right now, it works or though once the filter had become permanently deformed.
Af far as running, out of the box, the MAP tuning was not too great in part throttle, idle etc. It was also too rich at boost. After reviewing previous posts from MAP users and studying OZ951’s procedure I set about tuning I am using a 1.8k resistor across the alt sensor to tune in open loop, it’s the only way to go. After a week of ‘on the fly ‘tuning and data logging, it now runs great. Starts right up, idles great and has excellent part throttle drivability. I am almost close to finished on the narrow band and will head for the dyno soon. There are many, many permutations of adjustments that make a significant difference to the way the MAP runs. Right out of the box, it ran like shi*. Jumpy throttle, harsh throttle transition, soggy throttle response. After tuning only with an o2 sensor and data logging, it is a whole new car. As far as overall power I though I could never be scared shi*less by a K26/8. Running at 18psi on a cool day this car absolutely flys! It is fast. It feels like it would destroy my old (new) E46 M3. Can't wait to get a better turbo.
I have studied both 14psi and 18psi zones and have them now where they read on little on the rich side with the stock o2 sensor (~.89-.9 volts). Until I get on a dyno I am leaving it there. I love the fact that you can work in very small areas of the fuel/load curve without the interpolation spilling over too far. I have had numerous split second MAFs and tuning was always a compromise between idle, part and WOT. With the MAP, it is no longer so. I now have steady idle (zones 205, 305). Good starting (zones 600, 500, 505, 405). Great part throttle at any RPM (much adjustment in the 200 and 300 rows) and absolutely great control over WOT fueling (row 800’s for 14psi and 900 for 18psi).
The minor issues still to iron out are sometimes a lag in response when being abrupt with the throttle. 90% of the time you can’t tell unless your looking for it. I noticed that the air/fuel would go momentarily lean when the throttle is stabbed so I analyzed the logs while purposefully inducing these conditions. The interesting thing was that the log showed the MAP was actually always in right zone during abrupt throttle openings. For example, if cruising along at 3000rpm under light load I would be in zone 330. Now stab the throttle and sure enough without delay the MAP would jump to zone 630-730 corresponding with the increase in TPS voltage (recorded throttle position). The VECU (or fuel signal out) would also instantly jump up. However, the o2 sensor voltage recorded would indeed show a momentary lean condition. Not sure where this is coming from. Maybe Danno can speak to the interpolation characteristics of the MAP when jumping across large zone groups. Based on the data logs though, it looks like the MAP box keeps right on top of fuel signal under these transient conditions with no apparent breaks or lags in output.
So all in all I am currently happy. This thing makes serious power compared to my previous APE2 15psi set up (as would most AFM replacement upgrades with bigger injectors and higher boost).
I am also very much a tinkerer and like the level of adjustability the MAP gives over specific operating conditions without skewing any another settings. Love the simple data logging interface also. If you are planning on getting a GURU MAP, my advice would be , get ready to get right into the tuning aspect cos in my experience you need to.
For me, its not been ‘plug and play’ , rather ‘plug, tune, tune tune, and then play!. Once set up though they are very nice and maybe there are a few minor idiosyncrasies. But I will take these any day for the level of hands on, super precise tunability it gives me. Also, you MUST have the programmer and serial link.
P.S.
For the data log output, does anyone have conversion factors for TPS to get a % and VECU to get the 0-5v range in excel. Also, what is the’GAIN’ value in the dumps?)
Last edited by B951S; 10-02-2003 at 03:14 PM.
10-02-2003, 01:57 PM
#2
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On my car my 02 sensor doesn't fluctuate according to the tuning module. It just stays stuck at 0.7. The sensor is only a few months old. What connector did you wire the 02 sensor to on the MAP box? A picture or diagram perhaps? I'm wondering if this is what is causing my problem too.
10-02-2003, 03:04 PM
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Mike, If you have it connected like my guru instructions said to do it, you will have connected to o2 sensor to the AFM IN function (green/yellow). If so you should see the "Vin" value in the VOLTAGE page fluctuating with O2 output. This is how I realized the instructions were wrong.
If you look in at the connection on the MAP box there is a 9 pin connector with the middle or the top row being the alignment key. The O2 sensor is supposed to connect to connector on the top row to the right of the alignment key. its directly above the one that the guru instructions say to connect to (green/yellow) and is labelled as a white wire in the Link manual. The troble is there is no white wire or connector pin in the plug so you will have to rig one up.
Anyway, I don't know if Danno is supposed to reconfigure the boxes to work according to his instructions and forgot to do mine, but I know for sure mine was not right. Works great now.
If you look in at the connection on the MAP box there is a 9 pin connector with the middle or the top row being the alignment key. The O2 sensor is supposed to connect to connector on the top row to the right of the alignment key. its directly above the one that the guru instructions say to connect to (green/yellow) and is labelled as a white wire in the Link manual. The troble is there is no white wire or connector pin in the plug so you will have to rig one up.
Anyway, I don't know if Danno is supposed to reconfigure the boxes to work according to his instructions and forgot to do mine, but I know for sure mine was not right. Works great now.
10-02-2003, 03:10 PM
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Re: My expericences- MAP 2, Tial 38mm, Profec, 55#
Originally posted by B951S
I noticed that the air/fuel would go momentarily lean when the throttle is stabbed so I analyzed the logs while purposefully inducing these conditions. The interesting thing was that the log showed the MAP was actually always in right zone during abrupt throttle openings. For example, if cruising along at 3000rpm under light load I would be in zone 330. Now stab the throttle and sure enough without delay the MAP would jump to zone 630-730 with the corresponding increase in TPS voltage. The VECU (or fuel signal out) would also instantly jump up. However, the o2 sensor voltage recorded would indeed show a momentary lean condition. Not sure where this is coming from.
I noticed that the air/fuel would go momentarily lean when the throttle is stabbed so I analyzed the logs while purposefully inducing these conditions. The interesting thing was that the log showed the MAP was actually always in right zone during abrupt throttle openings. For example, if cruising along at 3000rpm under light load I would be in zone 330. Now stab the throttle and sure enough without delay the MAP would jump to zone 630-730 with the corresponding increase in TPS voltage. The VECU (or fuel signal out) would also instantly jump up. However, the o2 sensor voltage recorded would indeed show a momentary lean condition. Not sure where this is coming from.
Also, you MUST have the programmer and serial link to get anywhere with these set ups.
Originally posted by Mike S
On my car my 02 sensor doesn't fluctuate according to the tuning module. It just stays stuck at 0.7. The sensor is only a few months old. What connector did you wire the 02 sensor to on the MAP box?
On my car my 02 sensor doesn't fluctuate according to the tuning module. It just stays stuck at 0.7. The sensor is only a few months old. What connector did you wire the 02 sensor to on the MAP box?
10-02-2003, 03:17 PM
#6
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Roger that on the pins John, The frustrating thing was the instructions were not clear in describing where to wire the 02 sensor, they actually tell you to wire in wrong. No big deal though
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10-03-2003, 12:17 AM
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Re: My expericences- MAP 2, Tial 38mm, Profec, 55#
Originally posted by B951S
Installation on the tial 38mm was a complete pain in the a**.
Installation on the tial 38mm was a complete pain in the a**.
10-03-2003, 10:58 AM
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I used the supplied plates to adapt the 2 bolt flanges on the Tial to the 4 bolt on the stock flanges, but the hanger to support the thing from the torque tube went under the knife in order to get it to support the wastegate from the extension bracket that is part of the outlet flange.
10-03-2003, 01:02 PM
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I've got the link box with the boost control but at the moment I'm not using it. It's easier/simpler for me to use the reliaboost to dial in boost and air/fuel curves for now. Once I get those curves dialed in I will go electronic control.
