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Pistons 0.011" above the deck. Ok, just?

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Old 05-04-2015, 10:06 AM
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bebbetufs
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Default Pistons 0.011" above the deck. Ok, just?

Do I have enough clearance with the stock HG? I have lighter rods and wrist pins.
Old 05-05-2015, 03:14 PM
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blown 944
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Is that measured at the center or with it rocked upward?

That's out quite a bit. I'd run a thick gasket if you do go for it.

I've ran engines in both configurations (.010 out and .100 down) so it can work. I prefer to keep them down in the hole though with a forced induction engine.
Old 05-05-2015, 05:16 PM
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bebbetufs
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It seems people on the board tends to go for the thicker gasket, whereas I've been told the 1.1 is fine in e-mails from other recognized sources. I had decided to run the 1.1 to get more compression for better spool.

The measurements were taken along the centreline.

Argument for is that quench and burn will be better.
Argument against is that compression is bumped? Why is this considered to be negative?
Argument against is that the cam will be retarded, but may be offset by an offset key/ adjustable cam wheel.
Argument against is that the piston may hit the head?
Old 05-06-2015, 05:56 AM
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Voith
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More static compression = lower boost ability + better off boost performance.
Less static compression = higher safe boost levels, safer peak cyl. pressures, lower temperatures + sluggish off boost performance.

Found this explanation on the net that makes good sense and is not too complicated imo.

Consideration #1 Heat from compression by a supercharger or turbo can be removed (for the most part) through use of an intercooler. Heat from compression within the cylinder cannot. Also, the cylinder pressure at the end of the compression stroke (prior to ignition) goes up exponentially with an increase in static compression ratio, versus a linear increase with boost pressure. Therefore, increasing the static CR is going to unavoidably push you closer to the knock limit for a given fuel. In other words, the octane requirement goes up more by increasing the static CR than it does by increasing boost. For example, increasing the static CR from 8.5 to 9.5 increases the temperature within the cylinder at the end of the compression stroke (but before ignition) by ~63°F, (assuming IAT2 = 130°F and ideal adiabatic compression with γ = Cp/Cv = 1.4. I won’t bore anyone with equations. The situation doesn’t change much even if IAT2 were only, say, 100°F. In that case, the increase in temp at the end of the compression stroke goes up by ~60°F for the same increase in static CR). Also, the pressure at the end of the compression stroke (before ignition) goes up by ~97 psi from 574 psi to 671 psi, assuming atmospheric and boost pressures of 14.7 and 14 psi, respectively. On the other hand, increasing the boost pressure from 14 to 15 psi increases the outlet temp of the compressor by only ~11°F, assuming AE=60% and IAT1 = 90°F. And by further assuming an intercooler efficiency of 80%, the increase in IAT2 is only ~2°F. Hence, the increase in temp at the end of the compression stroke will hardly change at all. Also, the increase in cylinder pressure at the end of the compression stroke only goes up by ~20 psi (from 574 to 594 psia) with this increase in boost pressure. So summarizing the effects of increased temp and pressure at the end of the compression stroke for the two cases: Increased CR from 8.5 to 9.5: ΔT = ~63°F and ΔP = ~97 psi Increased boost from 14 to 15 psi: ΔT = ~2.4°F and ΔP = ~20 psi A higher temp and pressure increase the likelihood of deadly preignition for a given octane fuel. And for those astute observers that know the physics I’ve applied, yes, although I’ve idealized things to keep it simple, (by not including effects such as heat loss thru the cylinder walls during the compression stroke or ignition and valve timing in the calculations), I’m sure they’ll also recognize that this doesn’t change the conclusion.

Read more at: http://www.modularfords.com/threads/...boost-pressure
Consideration #2 Power is increased by two completely different mechanisms for the two approaches. Increasing the static compression ratio increases power via an increase in thermal-conversion efficiency. Increasing boost pressure increases power via an increase in mass-air flow rate. There’s less gain in thermal-conversion efficiency (and hence power) via an increased static CR compared to the power gain by increasing the mass-air flow rate via an increase in boost pressure. For example, increasing the static CR from 8.5 to 9.5 results in an increase in thermal-conversion efficiency (for an ideal Otto cycle) of about 3.2%. On the other hand, increasing the boost pressure from just 14 psi to 15 psi, increases the mass-air flow rate by about 3.5%. If boost pressure is increased by 2 psi, (from 14 to 16 psi), the increase in mass-air flow rate will now be more than twice that compared to the increase in thermal-conversion efficiency, (~7% vs ~3.2%), and ΔT and ΔP still won’t be as great as they are when increasing the static CR from 8.5 to 9.5. Therefore, not only can it be “safer” from the knock point of view, but a little more power is gained as well, (relatively speaking that is). In conclusion, I would contend that for a forced-induction application, that low compression is in general, the better way to go.

Read more at: http://www.modularfords.com/threads/...boost-pressure

Last edited by Voith; 05-06-2015 at 06:13 AM.
Old 05-06-2015, 06:16 AM
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well half the head is flat. so if it sticks past the HG it's going to hit the head.

more compression = higher cylinder peak pressure also.
Old 05-06-2015, 06:43 AM
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bebbetufs
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Trekkefjør Hitting the head is my main concern, but I prefer the 1.1 due to the better off boost performance and the lower risk of knocking due to better quench. The compression increase is not that great going from 0.006"of piston protrusion (considered pretty standard with the 1.1mm HG ) to 0.0.011".

According to one well regarded member of the forum I have nothing to worry about at 0.011"(in private email), although this leaves just 0.028" clearance. I trust his judgement, but there seems to be many who disagree. Is there a known min. number somewhere, perhaps in the 928 manual, or do you guys consider all this informed guesswork and different opinions?
Old 05-06-2015, 07:07 AM
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i would say theres expansion of the piston also. How much? I dont know. but if its lower than the thickness of the HG. you'll be fine.
Old 05-06-2015, 07:50 AM
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333pg333
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How much difference in reality will the static c/r be? What fuel are you going to be running again? A few extra points with a 16v head shouldn't hurt it. Heck, we're going to run 9:1 with the 2v head.
Old 05-06-2015, 10:30 AM
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Then just go for it.

I personally prefer to have a wider tuning latitude. Especially for a street engine.

The added quench is negligible for power gains IMO. So why risk the added stress to the piston crown?

If you measured in the center, then you have to consider that when the piston rocks it is even further out. Then consider skirt and cylinder wear.

I personally wouldn't do it. I've done it on drag race engines though
Old 05-06-2015, 11:26 AM
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bebbetufs
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The more I learn about this the more I tend to lean toward the 1.4 mm gasket

I've calculated the difference between the two gaskets to be 2.042cm3. I don't know what this equates to in CR.
Old 05-06-2015, 12:36 PM
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as you said above the difference in CR is very small, negligible...which would translate to negligible gain in off-boost response.

the thicker gasket does give you that much more clearance between head/piston, say if its a really hot day and you're running the car hard at high rpm don't you want a little wiggle room
Old 05-06-2015, 01:39 PM
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Also give yourself some room for rod-stretch @ high-RPMs. I've typically hear figures of 0.1mm.

Those Ford guys are slightly off. First, ideal-gas-law requires using Kelvins and starting from absolute zero. Pressure should be absolute in bar starting with perfect vacuum. And the equation was shown to be inaccurate at high pressures and temperatures because real gasses aren't "ideal" with zero molecular volume and zero mass.. There's correction-tables to use after you calculate the results.
Old 05-06-2015, 06:09 PM
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bebbetufs
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Originally Posted by V2Rocket_aka944
as you said above the difference in CR is very small, negligible...which would translate to negligible gain in off-boost response.

the thicker gasket does give you that much more clearance between head/piston, say if its a really hot day and you're running the car hard at high rpm don't you want a little wiggle room
Wiggle room sounds good. I think I'll go for the thicker gasket, but first i need to remove the exaust header stud that suddenly decided to snap on me.
Old 05-07-2015, 08:17 AM
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333pg333
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Will you be checking your piston to valve clearance?
Old 05-07-2015, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by 333pg333
Will you be checking your piston to valve clearance?
+1 especially if you have larger valves.


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