Throttle body sizing (theoretical and real world)
11-01-2013, 03:24 PM
#46
Rainman
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
There are 3 issues with the Northstar motor, that were solved over 10 years ago.
- One is a poor lower-engine case gasket which seeps some oil.
- One is weak, too-fine head bolt threads in the block pulling out compounded by cylinder barrels that aren't entirely level with the deck, causing the HG to fail. Replace with studs, problem solved.
- The last is an oil consumption issue, arising from Cadillacs with Northstars being driven by 600-year old blue hairs aiming at "the light". GM's actual service bulletin to sovle this was to have the Caddy techs take the cars around the block a few times and WOT the hell out of them, clearing carbon from pistons and letting the piston rings move around a bit. Problem solved.
Sorry to Dr. King, Ing. GmBH for going so far off topic, but I cannot abide as a truly good engine is insulted.
Back to your regularly scheduled systems analysis.
11-01-2013, 03:40 PM
#47
Race Car
Thread Starter
And "better" response is subjective. If you want more acceleration at a given pedal input, you'd do the exact opposite of if you want more precise part-throttle control. To me "better" is more controllable, but some folks would think their cars lost some part throttle torque.
11-01-2013, 04:05 PM
#48
Team Owner
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you're kinda weird like that anyway...
but/and/or the real question is; will it fit?
btw, down the street from Porsche Doc there's a neighborhood shop who's nearly exclusive to the Cadillac brand
and has a huge clientele in the KC area....
the boss/mechanic's hatred of the Northstar, (perhaps, bolstered now that they're out of production) is on full display.
11-01-2013, 04:19 PM
#49
Race Car
Thread Starter
What something like this? My friend (who is a Mercedes tuner here) developed and is producing per order side-throttle's: http://www.elbe.ee/products/engine/slidethrottle
He developed them himself because buying readymade ones is almost impossible and if it is, then one has to sell a kidney for those.
Here's for MB 2.3 and 2.5 16V Cosworth engines but he can make whichever cylinder spacing you need. I am considering those for my 911 2.5 short-stroke turbo motor.
He developed them himself because buying readymade ones is almost impossible and if it is, then one has to sell a kidney for those.
Here's for MB 2.3 and 2.5 16V Cosworth engines but he can make whichever cylinder spacing you need. I am considering those for my 911 2.5 short-stroke turbo motor.
I dig Cossies, too, but mostly the Ford stuff. Would love an Escort or an RS500 Sierra (I had the US version of the Sierra, a "Merkur XR4Ti." Had a few, but who is counting?).
11-01-2013, 05:34 PM
#50
My only point with the statement was that US engineers have to be creative to deliver something that meets targets, and they are subject to much more harsh cost constraints than the others, most notably the Germans [...] GM has brilliant engineers. The Germans, much less so. Just like the "Ford could make a Ferrari" thing, the American ENGINEERS would have no problem making those kinds of engines if they were given the freedom to spend as much as the others do.
Engineers from the Western world are therefore sentenced to design and produce increasingly short-lived renewable goods at ever-decreasing costs - when Design hasn't already been subdued to some more cost-effective office in Asia or elsewhere.
Engineers from all over the world have financial constraints to work with. If consumers are more attracted into products with a high level of perceived quality that are actually poor, then either educate consumers into buying quality products, behind which the consumer may think rightly or wrongly there are "brilliant engineers", or just blame the consumer society - which has its roots in the US.
So before going on about the global conspiracy against American engineers (
) let's see how many more wins the Corvette can net at Le Mans. I'm sure there are quite a few more to come.
Last edited by Thom; 11-01-2013 at 06:02 PM. Reason: typo
11-01-2013, 09:16 PM
#52
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I promise i'll never drive a car that goes 195 mph and does it well, unless it wins on the track against cars costing 3~9 times as much
and go 200 mph at places where the French and (other totally awesome Euro people) drink wine and eat crackers topped with paste.
and go 200 mph at places where the French and (other totally awesome Euro people) drink wine and eat crackers topped with paste.
11-02-2013, 07:51 AM
#53
Nordschleife Master
Exactly. Patrick, the assertion I made was really in the automotive context. The industry is a bit funny - the US designs their cars to run in places that no one else does. When I was doing cold weather calibration, we'd target getting cars to run in -40 degree conditions. Then hot weather, they had to tow fullyl loaded trailers (even cars - up to a bit beyond their max loaded conditions) up what we called "Davis Dam," which was some stupid incline in the middle of the desert. When you go up north, you don't see Japanese or German cars, you only see AMerican ones.
Up north in Sweden around Arjeplog most European manufacturers (Ford and GM too!) have extremely large test facilities for winter testing. In fact more than 9000 people within the auto industry visit this huge area every year to test cars in development under very harsh conditions.
As far as engineering and knowledge per Country I'd say the UK wins hands down with all the F1 development centered in a small area. (Cue comment about Nascar developement
)
11-02-2013, 08:15 AM
#54
Race Car
Thread Starter
With all due respect this is complete BS. You are very knowledgable and do great contributions to the forum with your tech posts. But with a post like the above it's evident you don't know much about how the European car manufacturers develop cars. A surprisingly narrow-minded post from you
looks like a side remark made in s thread about the Corvette had successfully derailed this one, too.
11-02-2013, 08:15 AM
#55
Rennlist Member
Plenty of manufacturers (including Ford & GM) doing hot weather testing in the Middle East as well. I don't think anyone can claim to have the monopoly on the best engineering. There are brilliant engineers all over the world.
Don't know who the best are but I know who the worst engineers in the world are though. They would be the two ex-Porsch german engineers (their claim anyway) who returned my car to me not running after 8 weeks trying to swap a 968 motor into my S2 in Dubai when they couldn't work out the wiring. Took me a month to sort out the mess they had made and get it running myself. Probably had something to do with the empty beer cans I removed from the spare tire well and from under the seats!
Back to the topic, don't those slide throttles have a reputation for getting stuck?
Don't know who the best are but I know who the worst engineers in the world are though. They would be the two ex-Porsch german engineers (their claim anyway) who returned my car to me not running after 8 weeks trying to swap a 968 motor into my S2 in Dubai when they couldn't work out the wiring. Took me a month to sort out the mess they had made and get it running myself. Probably had something to do with the empty beer cans I removed from the spare tire well and from under the seats!
Back to the topic, don't those slide throttles have a reputation for getting stuck?
11-02-2013, 08:26 AM
#56
Race Car
Thread Starter
Well crap. can't lock a thread from my phone. if a mod wants to, go ahead. I will when I'm back from my daughters' swim meet otherwise. sorry for ruffling feathers in another thread that spilled over to this one, but it is detracting from the point of this thread.
