perfect gearhead name.

Harry Gant,

Harry Hogg,

"All right Harry, when it comes to the car, I take your word."

 

Pat - your project is a good example of the same concept. Given a nearly unlimited budget and time a great product an be made (like your car). Given a minimal production Budget (per unit) and the expectation that it will be reliable for 10yrs/100k miles while being driven by complete idiots the engineering had better be excellent (cars for the general public).

Even the $1m Ferraris require a much higher maintenance than any Ford and the cost of the maintenance is extremely high.

The new Coyote motor makes more than 400hp and will do that for 100k miles or more. That's impressive. I have made more than my share of 400hp 951 motors - would I guarantee that they will run for 100k miles being beaten on every day in -20f to 120f temps?....I don't think I would want to find that out!

 

BTW - the 65mm throttle body does have its draw backs, the initial throttle travel is very non linear. in the mid range RPMs you can get full boost at 1/8 throttle opening. Makes for a very jumpy car at cruising speeds unless you modify the throttle cam.
On the standalone cars I also tie the TPS signal into the boost control to have a variable boost setting based on throttle position. That helps but you still can go from 20+ inches of vacuum (20kpa) to no vacuum in a very small pedal movement.

 

Harry - that's on a modified system. The stock throttle body is very close to the ID of the stock intercooler tubes.

 

Exactly. Patrick, the assertion I made was really in the automotive context. The industry is a bit funny - the US designs their cars to run in places that no one else does. When I was doing cold weather calibration, we'd target getting cars to run in -40 degree conditions. Then hot weather, they had to tow fullyl loaded trailers (even cars - up to a bit beyond their max loaded conditions) up what we called "Davis Dam," which was some stupid incline in the middle of the desert. When you go up north, you don't see Japanese or German cars, you only see AMerican ones.

But really the biggest reason, as Chris alluded to, was to do things cost effectively. You hear the term "German Engineering," and I'll be honest, my experience with German engineers is less than impressive. But, no one thinks of "American Engineering," when in reality, because of the fact that decisinos are made because of finances, the Americans have to get more creative........and they do.

To pull the 5.0L engine out, when it came out, it had the highest BMEP at peak power of any V8 engine out there (V8's are at an inherent disadvantage in tuning due to firing order, except planar crank V8's like Ferraris). BMEP is specific torque. No one really thinks about BMEP at peak power, as it isn't so much a marketing term, but it is a really good indication of how well the engine is designed. The alternative to hitting target power is increasing RPM. That isn't that tough if you can put the budget in there for lighter valvetrain components and a better oiling system. But when you have to keep the cost of an engine under $1500, it isn't easy.

Another thing about the 5.0L. Not just absolutely world class performance and bang for the buck, but consider this - it was designed to be produced at the high volume line at Romeo Engine Plant (REP). REP's cycle time is 18 seconds. In other words, a new one rolls off the line every 18 seconds.

I've never dealt with any Australian engineers, unfortunately. I was going to be the head systems engineer on one of the FPV Falcon products in about 2005, but it was cancelled before it really got rolling. That said, I think that our cultures are quite similar, and a lot of it is driven by geography. I think that the tough, just get it done attitude that came to define AMerica as immigrants moved across the landscape has fed into our culture. And I'd be surprised if Australians don't have some similar experiences. I know that our car cultures are more similar than anywhere else.


Odurandina.......you left out the most gearhead like Harry out there - Harry Miller.

Also on the size questions pertaining to valve size (Shawn) and velocity (Patrick), I'll get back in a bit and elaborate.

 

Dunno, I have been in polar areas many times (in Norway, Finland, Sweden, Russia) and have not seen many US cars there for some reason....

Why aren't US car companies producing cars like BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Audi but instead produce cars that have cheap plastic interiors, suspension that makes you sea-sick, over-assisted and numb steering, less than impressive reliability and just slightly cheaper price? Also, European car manufacturers have to consider fuel economy, something that US car makers apparently never heard of.
Also, aforementioned car manufacturers produce these cars at profit, not subsidized/bailed out by governments. Unlike in US.

Give yourself a break and try to look things from perspective rather than from only your standpoint.

P.S. I work in automotive industry (Tier 1 supplier) as a quality specialist.

 

Lets all concede that most countries have great engineers and keep this thread on topic.

 

It's easier to drive to the top of Canada than from Detroit to Sweden


because there is a market for US cars as big as the entire european continent combined over here, and some of those customers just need "a car" rather than a "sharp handling" car. and people need those at a good price, over here i think the cheapest BMW is around $35000. a mustang with 300HP/31mpg is $10k less than that, and the 420hp GT is just over $30000. easy choice there, not to mention that most BMWs when new sound like vacuum cleaners at full throttle.

our gas is still half (or less) the cost of yours, so its not that big of an issue yet, but look how much our industry has come in the last decade! the "average" new car over the course of a full tank will average 23mpg, but that is likely counting trucks/SUVs which we looooove over here. but if you take those big cars out, unskewing the actual car data, the average economy is way higher.

Isn't VW's largest shareholder the German state of Lower Saxony?

have you seen anything the russians built in the last 100 years?


back to the topic, could this be fairly well summarized as "when building a flow system, find the orifice size that you can't easily adjust (intercooler outlet size for example, or the intake valve as harry will blow our minds with) and then adjust the other openings (pipes, hoses, tb) accordingly"?

 

wow. you're living in the '80s.

I can tell you case after case of endless Fords that run in my extended family, trucks, SUV's, you name it, going 250,000 miles +++.

go on RLOT. different cars for different purposes at different price points.

American cars can take a horrific beating. especially for the harsh winter weather.

the euros limit the import of American vehicles, so your import taxes are hardly our fault.

I put near 200 k miles on 2 Ford Escapes running overweight (surfing clients) off-road 60 mph, through mud, rocks and dirt and you couldn't kill 'em if you tried.

I really laugh when Jeremy Clarkson takes his Brit snob bull**** and attempts to debunk American trucks.

what a joke. god damned things are bulletproof.


then there's the Crown Vic, typical million mile taxicab. I could go on and on and on and on.

Chevy engines rock too. Jeeps; bring it on.


and there can be little doubt, some of the cheapest, ****tiest cars out there are the VW products with near endless repairs.

then there's my all time favorite euro cars SAAB, Land Rover, Range Rover, etc...

as to the suspension on American cars, we have 120,000,000,000 more miles of roads and frost heaves from long extreme winters and wide temperature swings. the cars are designed for a trillion miles of pot-holes. and for that intended purpose, they do their job well.

BMWs and other euro saloons are designed for the more discerning car buyer whose more comfortable with doing frequent parts swaps. and if you drive a BMW in Northern New England, you'll be swapping out suspension parts. all good.


you're endless anti-American banter is one thing.

but, even worse is the fact that you don't know what the f_ck you're talking about.

 

Support American cars all you want, but new Mustangs are still junk that cant handle bumps in the road and take three seconds to downshift or respond to throttle input. And that was a 2013/2014 model.

 

I also laugh when I hear Clarkson hyping British cars, agree.

But I also work as a car journalist in http://www.autoleht.ee/ from 2005 (also have a degree in journalism) and have testdriven over 400 different car models over years, plus doing regularly reviews of used cars (that include all manufacturers) and use frequently TÜV statistics which are numbers, not opinions.
How many cars have you driven in your lifetime?

 

fify.


hell, I'm not done yet.

name me even one case. ONE production Vette, Mustang, Camaro, Dodge Challenger, Viper or Ford GT engine
GRENADING in the last 20 years *(outside of those used in full-scale racing).


I will however concede one serious blemish of American engineering from the last 20 years.

the Cadillac Northstar engine.

oh GOD WHAT total effing junk.


I realize you hate the United States and probably still love that Commie Crook Obama.

and don't even get me started on the new Vettes. talk about SMASH AND GRAB for your hard earned dollar.


yep, haters gonna hate. go and sin no more.

hell, even have a nice day with that econobox, 4 cylinder bucket of bolts while you're at it.




you obviously haven't been to Grand Am in Daytona.

Mustangs are what they are, SLIGHTLY refined musclecars with mostly undersized gas-friendlier v8s.

save of course, for the 351 Saleen.


.

 

I was talking about cars in general, and as always there are exceptions to the rules.

I don't hate americans or american cars (I even used to own Gen 3 camaro with 5.0 engine), but really cannot take seriously individuals who's mind is narrow as a$$crack.

Still, you did not answer my direct question (like on several previous occasions in different threads):

 

Ah, so as soon as someone pokes at your favorite brand, its all "They are what they are" Just because theyre "SLIGHTLY refined musclecars" means they shouldnt have a responsive transmission and throttle? It was hard to even do a safe lane change in one it was so terrible.

The Camaro I had recently was better, it didnt hesitate for three seconds on throttle input/downshifts. Of course it had blind spots that could hide a semi and a stereo/navigation system that should be illegal it was so difficult to use while driving. But it responded to inputs faster than a Mustang.

 

You weren't driving a Boss then, that car is awesome! Totally with you on the Camaro blind spots though.