Latest track video of the widebody 3.1l 16v turbo
#31
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
I don't think you see the bigger picture here.. spool vs rpm by itself means nothing in terms of how quick it is! That is the issue with the dynos that does not contol the rate of acceleration - the larger the mass for the engine accelerate the slower the rate of acceleration is and the longer the available time window is to build boost. That does not make the car quicker!!
Now if your argument were true, the car would be quicker with an even heavier flywheel. That also means that the car would be quicker the heavier the FW is... so if we put a 1000 kg flywheel on the engine which take forever for the engine to accelerate we would probably get the turbo to spool say 1000-2000 rpm sooner. Question is - do we have a quicker car? Now please drop this, at least in my thread. Please open a separate thread if you want to continue to talk about this and try to explain your theories (not "take it to the dyno").
Now if your argument were true, the car would be quicker with an even heavier flywheel. That also means that the car would be quicker the heavier the FW is... so if we put a 1000 kg flywheel on the engine which take forever for the engine to accelerate we would probably get the turbo to spool say 1000-2000 rpm sooner. Question is - do we have a quicker car? Now please drop this, at least in my thread. Please open a separate thread if you want to continue to talk about this and try to explain your theories (not "take it to the dyno").
#33
Rennlist Member
I never said any of this, including the acronym, RPM.
There is such a thing as diminishing returns.
I still don't know why you are arguing with me. I mentioned it once, you attacked me like everyone does on here, I backed down and simply asked for a dyno/your feelings back when you do it, and you continue to attack and then tell me to stay out of a public thread.
So, once again, install the LTW flywheel and give it a go and report back.
There is such a thing as diminishing returns.
I still don't know why you are arguing with me. I mentioned it once, you attacked me like everyone does on here, I backed down and simply asked for a dyno/your feelings back when you do it, and you continue to attack and then tell me to stay out of a public thread.
So, once again, install the LTW flywheel and give it a go and report back.
#34
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
I never said any of this, including the acronym, RPM.
There is such a thing as diminishing returns.
I still don't know why you are arguing with me. I mentioned it once, you attacked me like everyone does on here, I backed down and simply asked for a dyno/your feelings back when you do it, and you continue to attack and then tell me to stay out of a public thread.
So, once again, install the LTW flywheel and give it a go and report back.
There is such a thing as diminishing returns.
I still don't know why you are arguing with me. I mentioned it once, you attacked me like everyone does on here, I backed down and simply asked for a dyno/your feelings back when you do it, and you continue to attack and then tell me to stay out of a public thread.
So, once again, install the LTW flywheel and give it a go and report back.
#35
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Here is another way to look at it -
once you engage the clutch you are spinning the entire drive train - torque tube, transmission gears, axle shafts and wheels - is a lighter or heavier flywheel going to make much of a difference to that? maybe a percent or two - not worth considering the effect.
Is the lighter flywheel going to help with up and down shifts? Yes, in a big way. Much more responsive on the track but kind of alloying on the street (stalls at stoplights very easily).
once you engage the clutch you are spinning the entire drive train - torque tube, transmission gears, axle shafts and wheels - is a lighter or heavier flywheel going to make much of a difference to that? maybe a percent or two - not worth considering the effect.
Is the lighter flywheel going to help with up and down shifts? Yes, in a big way. Much more responsive on the track but kind of alloying on the street (stalls at stoplights very easily).
#36
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Duke - lets bring the fun back - is Dutch944's picture a jet pack or a self ignited fart?? Inquiring minds want to know!
#37
Three Wheelin'
Chris, see the two buttons with the small control box? Those are button to control the sparkplugs which are placed on the backpack. I use those to ignite the farts!
#38
Race Car
Flywheel stores energy, not creating it and the energy stored must come from somewhere. Perhaps engine would be my 1st guess?
Only situation where heavier flywheel is good thing is when you start moving with the car in gear, stored energy from idle speed help the engine to maintain its rotation from inertia.
If someone explains with facts how heavier flywheel is useful during acceleration and/or throttle response on any car (be it forced induction or NA), I would be grateful.
Only situation where heavier flywheel is good thing is when you start moving with the car in gear, stored energy from idle speed help the engine to maintain its rotation from inertia.
If someone explains with facts how heavier flywheel is useful during acceleration and/or throttle response on any car (be it forced induction or NA), I would be grateful.
Anyway, I don't understand the argument. Who cares where in the RPM band the boost hits? If it hits lower because the car is accelerating more slowly because of a flywheel, how is that an advantage? 0-full boost in 0.7 seconds at 4500 RPM is supposed to be better than 0-full boost in 0.6 seconds at 4750 exactly how? Plus the car isn't as far down the track. Call me crazy, but I'd rather the car be accelerating more quickly and further down the track, and hitting full boost more quickly relative to TIME than farther back, less quickly, later relative to TIME, but a little bit lower down per the tach. I know it certainly didn't slow down my car when I went to a lighter flywheel, but I think I had done some other things, so I can't give a non-confounding, absolute answer.
Of course, the argument is entirely academic since we are talking about driving on a track, and if you can go from 0% throttle to WOT instantaneously, you are probably slowing down way too much for the turn, or applying throttle way too late. What kind of experience do people arguing have with driving a turbocharged car on a racetrack at a somewhat high level, say advanced solo or higher? I simply cannot think of a turn where I am not at part throttle for at least some of it. If you've done it, did you not develop an awareness of your inputs when you were learning? Once you are at WOT somewhere between the apex and track out, the lighter flywheel is an advantage.
Duke, there are two other options you have. The 968 flywheel is larger, but it is dual mass, which isn't as good. Another is to drill and tap the perimeter of a larger, turbo flywheel and put in cap set screws. You can use the factory location of the reference sensor, and feed your PCM (I'm assuming it is all aftermarket). Might cost you a bit to have a machinist do that, but I would expect that it'll work. The sensor just look for a PIP.
#39
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Duke, there are two other options you have. The 968 flywheel is larger, but it is dual mass, which isn't as good. Another is to drill and tap the perimeter of a larger, turbo flywheel and put in cap set screws. You can use the factory location of the reference sensor, and feed your PCM (I'm assuming it is all aftermarket). Might cost you a bit to have a machinist do that, but I would expect that it'll work. The sensor just look for a PIP.
#40
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Of course, the argument is entirely academic since we are talking about driving on a track, and if you can go from 0% throttle to WOT instantaneously, you are probably slowing down way too much for the turn, or applying throttle way too late. What kind of experience do people arguing have with driving a turbocharged car on a racetrack at a somewhat high level, say advanced solo or higher? I simply cannot think of a turn where I am not at part throttle for at least some of it. If you've done it, did you not develop an awareness of your inputs when you were learning? Once you are at WOT somewhere between the apex and track out, the lighter flywheel is an advantage.
#41
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#42
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Guys, I know it can be done with a 951 flywheel... but I don't like it. Now how the hell did my track video turn into 3 pages of flywheel discussion
#43
Race Car
That's why I said it might cost a bit!!!!! I have an acquaintance who said he could do it for me for what I hope to eventually get around to doing. I've got 16V engine parts laying around all over the place, but no time
#44
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#45
Nordschleife Master
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