for the 951:VR-1 20w50 summer, Rotella T 15w40 winter

 

I run exactly the same down here in south central texas where we dont get much of a winter and summer temps get over 100 for weeks at a time. I'll be switching out my T6 for VR1 in about a month and will probably run the VR1 until around november or december, pretty much whenever it starts dropping below ~50 degrees in the mornings on a regular basis.

 

I used to switch between the T6 and VR1, but stopped doing that now. We don't get that many chilly days in Tampa, and really don't see the need. Since you are using the T6, did you happen to get in on the great deal about a month ago from Autozone? I am not sure if they screwed up or what, but the price got down to around $3-4 per quart after the online coupon, which is a steal. I assume you are referring to the fully synthetic VR-1, they have both and some people (younger guys usually), buy the dino version. Still a good oil, but rather have the synthetic on a highly modified engine.

 

Yes I did get the T6 from autozone at a ridiculous price, right around 4 dollars a quart. I ended up buying like 3 gallons of it for ~60 bucks. IMO its one of the best non 50 weight oils on the market. As for the VR1, yes I only use synthetic oil in my car. I didn't even know VR1 came in a dino version.

 

Glad to read you test your oil. We recommend that to everyone, though not everyone heeds our advice.

The price of Millers is pretty well in line with similar products from Joe Gibbs, Mobil 1, and Motul, though Motul doens't seem to enforce the MAP the same way the others do. The Motul 300V is the only other thing I'd recommend, given what I've seen from them. The others aren't that bad, but they aren't that great. Yes, some other race oils out there are less expensive, but I really, really wouldn't consider them. Go to the bench testing section here if you are curious to know what I'm talking about, notice the oil film thickness - note this is under boundary conditinos, which is where you have metal to metal contact, most typically near TDC and BDC of the cylinders, but it seen in some conditions throughout the rest of the engine. http://performanceracingoils.com/dyn...ion-ezp-9.html There is more to it, though, such as chemical and base stock composition, but that stuff factors into the results shown (as well as longevity, temperature range, etc.).

The head chemist puts it in his street car, obviously tests is, but generally gets 20,000 miles per fill. When you look at overall oil costs, rather than $/unit volume, the math changes quite significantly. And having killed an engine from 3 DE's by running a "race" oil that has been mentioned here, the operating cost come into play, as well, and the picture changes even more. Especially given our propensity to eat the #2 bearing. I will never use another inexpensive oil.

FWIW, though, I run regular synthetic in my daily driver (2010 535i), a semi-synthetic in my tow truck (2007 Ram w/ Cummins), and the NT race oil in my 968. Obviously, it goes in the track car, too. The 535i will change to the NT, though, when it is out of warranty.

Side note - be careful with the VR1 stuff. It is confusing, as there are three rather different VR1's. The "not street legal" stuff is best suited to racing applications, but it is like Joe Gibbs, you pretty much have to change it every track event, as there are no detergents, and it becomes acidic very, very quickly. The street stuff has a conventional and a synthetic. I find anything other than the street conventional very, very hard to find. Not directed at my Gator friend (and if memory serves, a fellow Glacier 89 owner?) directly, but more of a caveat to anyone else reading.

 

Are you saying that Brad Penn racing oil is not good? I don't like the beating around the bush. If you have test results that says Brad Penn is not good then post them up. From what I have seen ZDDP is at the proper levels for an engine such as the 944. I can't get over the cost of it either. I can get for about $5 a quart. Which is a pretty damn good deal. I would run full synthetic Mobil 1, but My oil pan gasket would need to be changed before I did that.

This Miller oil sounds expensive at $20 a quart maybe I misread that. Motul is really good oil. Not related, but I used to run Motul 710 in my old RZ350. It never smoked when warm, and took a beating every single day. The motor just kept on chugging along. The powervalves and everything were extremely clean. If it wasn't so crazy expensive (almost $40 a gallon) I would still be running it.

 

Harry:

If it were just about anybody else I would say hogwash, but knowing your background and education, I guess I will pony up and switch to one of your reccomended oils. I pulled my engine apart at 87,000 miles using the VR1 20-50W synthetic. (I thought all VR1 oils were racing oils) I was not using the specialty VR1 oil that is stated "not street legal". My engine showed almost zero signs of wear, even on the bearings. Every critical measurement was witin factory spec. I only pulled it apart to take on this massive upgrade. I honestly still feel it is unecessary for a street car, but since I have sunk a bomb into the Florida car's engine, what is another $150 for an oil change. I am considering spending $200 on a reusable oil filter, so should go well with the expensive oil. Please give me your opinion on the Pure Power filters on the thread I started today.

So here come the questions: What is a safe limit both time and mileage for a garage queen that sits alot, with this oil? Since I travel alot, 90% of the time, the car will be on jack stands in a climate controlled garage most of the time. I might put a 1,000 miles a year on the car. I will break the engine in with Joe Gibbs break in oil. After break in, should I directly switch to the Miller's or would you use an intermediate for 500 miles or so first? Any advice would be appreciated.

Some information on the synthetic VR1 20-50W I am/was using:

More NASCAR Sprint Cup and top NHRA crew chiefs use Valvoline. Valvoline's advanced racing synthetic is easily distinguished by its sapphire blue color, but the real difference is the track-proven additive package engineered to maximize horsepower and provide extreme wear protection. The high zinc SL formula is designed for the track, but is great for high performance passenger vehicles too, including flat tappet applications. Look for Valvoline Racing Synthetic at participating auto parts stores.

My friend owns a huge body shop and wrap operation in both Tampa and Charlotte. He has sponsored Brad Keselowski since he was a teenager and I frequently get hot passes to most any NASCAR race I wish to attend. I have personally watched them use this oil in his car. That is why I switched, good enough to pull 9000 rpm's for 500 miles in a push-rod engine, should be good enough for my street car. I was truly shocked when I saw them use this off the shelf oil at Daytona.

I am attaching PDF from Valvoline.

 

Wow, you still have a RZ350? I had that bike when I was a teenager and loved it! My first bike was a YZ80, YZ125, then onto the RZ350 for the street. Don't want to derail thread, but had to get that in there.

 

Thanks for the insightful advice guys - I'll look into the Millers NT. After breaking in my new motor this sounds like a great option. Previously I was looking at Motul V300.
Tim

 

A few quick points, and I'll post up more later today. The main one is that my primary interest is in justifying/explaining the cost of Millers relative to some of the other products out there. It is in line with other high end racing oils, but since few people are familiar with it, it gets a bit more scrutiny.

Won't post up specifics about other brands, but will post up some charts that are not labeled as far as who they are.

My reference to prior experience was not Brad Penn. But conventional oils are not nearly as good as synthetics. Good synthetics will use blends of base stocks to get their viscosity and temperature capability profiles. Conventional oils use polymeric additives such as butadiene, which is basically just dissolved rubber. They break down much more readily with heat, meaning the oil won't protect as well as long. Which gets back to my point in trying to justify the cost of the stuff I sell - $5/qt isn't less expensive than $20/L when you have to change it four times as frequently. Whether or not that holds true for any one specific application will be very highly dependent on the usage.

Gotta run, will follow-up later today.

 

So Harry, for track only cars are you saying that the Millers can be left in the motor / oil system for substantially longer than the more regular dino race offerings?

 

I freakin' hate when you spend 30 minutes typing a reply, and then IE locks up on you. Grrr......

Here is an article that is 7 years old, from Race Engine Technology, that outlines some of the differences between the different types of oils. http://performanceracingoils.com/PDF..._Expensive.pdf It goes into why good race oils are more expensive, and why the conventionals don't last as long. Caveat to that - that assumes there aren't other factors. The oil will break down and lose viscosity, that is one failure mode. Another is that it may become acidic. The tendency to become acidic is from the additive pack, so you can become acidic very quickly with a good synthetic, and there are two out there that are designed to do just that - Joe Gibbs and Valvoline's "Not Legal for Street Use" version of VR1.

When we tested Brad Penn, one of the things that stuck out to me was a very low VI, only 114. That's not the be-all end-all. Most good oils have VI's in the 150-170 range. There is one ultra-high VI oil out there, but doing that means you are almost exclusively PAO, and do not use ester base stocks. PAO and Ester each have strengths and weaknesses, and work well together. You won't see any oils with ester base stocks exceeding 20%, though, it is ually PAO base stocks that contain no ester. The ester will bring down the VI, but it does so many other good things that it is a worthwhile tradeoff. Note that too much ester will impede the ZDDP's ability to do what it needs to do, as both are polar, and will "fight" for surface area of the metals.

Here are some examples of good and bad oils, in one document, but the charts are on the link from my prior post. Again, boundary conditions, so even though some show virtually no oil film, the bulk of the engine is running under hydrodynamic conditions. It is still an important factor, but you may be inclined to think "if those charts were true, the engine would lock up!" which isn't the case.

I'll post more about professional race teams in a second.

 

I assume the Daytona race was this year? Meeting with professional teams, especially NASCAR, is maddening. I have a friend who is the General Manager at the Roush Yates Performance Engine Group, and another who is the engineer at Germain Racing, both from my time at Ford (I actually used to crew for Scott, the guy at Germain, about 12 years ago).

Basically, last year, Penske was using Pennzoil. This year, since they are buying or leasing engines, rather than building them, they are doing what Roush-Yates dictates, which is run Valvoline. My friend at Germain wants to try our oil, but he can't do it. And the engine builders have commercial ties to the oil companies. At the end of the day, NASCAR is a business, and it has gotten much worse at enabling innovation and new technology. For example, last year, the teams could go buy a sheet of Lexan, and drop in the windshield. $200 and 30 minutes later, done. This year, they MUST buy from the "official supplier of NASCAR," and the windshield costs them $950. This is one of teh things Germain is struggling with. Last year, they had more money to spend on testing things in the wind tunnel, this year, they have had to cut out a lot of that. There's a chance they will do some, and if they do, Scott may try our gear oil, but even then, he'll have to verify its usage through the third party from where they procure it (it may, too, be Roush-Yates, I don't recall, but it isn't teh builder).

Met with several Grand Am teams last year. One guy finally said to us "look, I appreciate what you are trying to do, it sounds interesting, but at the end of the day, Mobil 1 drops off a pallet of oil at our shop, free of change, every month. We're all on budgets here, when you get that much stuff at no cost, you take it." Millers is still a small company. It is used in places where it does not recieve credit, where budgets are less of a concern, and commercial ties are not as long standing and integrated. But, you won't see them advertising in any major series, as their entire worldwide revenues wouldn't be enough to sponsor a team at the highest level. The tie to Bryan Herta is a technical development one, not a conventional sponsorship. Probably shouldn't elaborate on that one, either.

We made some headway with Bryan Herta, but at present, they are only running our gear oil. That may change, but we get back to the fact that the engine manufacturers dictate the oil. That is all I am at liberty to say at present. Wish I could say more, trust me!

 

Yes, it is a "sponsored" article, but non-the-less very informative:

http://www.drivenracingoil.com/dro/racing-oil-101

Also has quite a bit of direct comparison information near the end on two regulars on our forum VR-1 and Mobil 1