LS conversions. Let's hear it.
11-20-2012, 12:00 AM
#106
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not to mention any weight savings would probably suffer with having to build some kind of heat barrier/venting for the engine in an attempt to keep the cockpit from getting too hot and the driver being poisoned by harmful vapors ? and doesn't the torque tube also add structural integrity to the car/increased safety?
11-20-2012, 12:57 AM
#107
Three Wheelin'
^^ Not true. It would just require some spring rate and suspension changes. By concentrating the weight between the wheel base you would be lowering polar moment of inertia and with the right setup would probably end up with a more responsive handling car.
Not saying a mid engine fit would be easy though, you do have a problem with a lack of driver space, but you could move the rear suspension back or extend the footwells.
They did a mid engine V8 swap for the Alfa Sprint in Australia in the 80s. The sprint body has more room behind the driver for it, but a crazy cool idea anyway.
http://theamazoeffect.blogspot.com.a...lian-body.html
Not saying a mid engine fit would be easy though, you do have a problem with a lack of driver space, but you could move the rear suspension back or extend the footwells.
They did a mid engine V8 swap for the Alfa Sprint in Australia in the 80s. The sprint body has more room behind the driver for it, but a crazy cool idea anyway.
http://theamazoeffect.blogspot.com.a...lian-body.html
If I recall correctly, the project was funded by the import credits earned by exporting Ford 351C engines to De Tomaso!
There's a sadly awesome photo sequence of someone in one trying to break a Vmax record and hitting a wall.
11-20-2012, 01:52 AM
#108
Rennlist Member
Are you really concentrating the weight between the wheel base, or just loading it all on the rear? If you look at the Alfa you posted, they actually put the weight between the wheel base.
Either way, the rear suspension would be a nightmare. I'd rather shift the engine back in the engine compartment, moving the firewall if needed, to achieve the same effect.
Either way, the rear suspension would be a nightmare. I'd rather shift the engine back in the engine compartment, moving the firewall if needed, to achieve the same effect.
Even the stock rear suspension design would work no better or worse as long as the spring rates matched the weight increase and bushings joints were beefed up where needed, but you might as well fab in a double a-arm rear while you are cutting the car to pieces.
A lot of the cars running in our Sports Sedan category move the whole engine and gearbox rearward by cutting the firewall to achieve a front mid engine. The fab work involved in that is just as complicated as it would be to mid mount something. And you aren't achieving quite the same effect as a rear mid engine. A rear weight bias is still superior for acceleration and braking.
not to mention any weight savings would probably suffer with having to build some kind of heat barrier/venting for the engine in an attempt to keep the cockpit from getting too hot and the driver being poisoned by harmful vapors ? and doesn't the torque tube also add structural integrity to the car/increased safety?
11-20-2012, 04:09 AM
#109
Rennlist Member
How about reversing the whole drivetrain. Engine in rear, gearbox in front and shorten the torque tube...
...I kid I kid...
You could make it 4wd though. That would put some weight back in the front. Pull an Evo drivetrain out and run the mid engine East-West...now this is getting silly.
...I kid I kid...
You could make it 4wd though. That would put some weight back in the front. Pull an Evo drivetrain out and run the mid engine East-West...now this is getting silly.
11-20-2012, 04:18 AM
#111
Rennlist Member
...or with those old Spy Glasses you could buy from the back of Comic Books that had tiny mirrors in the corner of the frames to see behind you....just saying...
11-20-2012, 09:36 AM
#113
The Audi V8 is 396 Lbs dry and if mated to the 944/951 trans would have the serpentine only 10.5 inches forward of the torsion tube. That's what I've measured anyways.
Someone is actually mounting the Audi V8 in the front bay on 944hybrids.
Someone is actually mounting the Audi V8 in the front bay on 944hybrids.
11-20-2012, 01:56 PM
#114
I stumbled upon this on the 928 board :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=Cx34NK1yB3M#
http://www.pureperformancemotorsport.com/cars.php?id=26
Ever seen this car up close, Duke?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=Cx34NK1yB3M#
http://www.pureperformancemotorsport.com/cars.php?id=26
Ever seen this car up close, Duke?
11-20-2012, 02:42 PM
#115
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
I've seen that car once but didn't get a chance to scrutinize it. It didn't look so nice from what I could see but then again race cars tend to look like crap after a while.
So I don't know how much they've modified to get the 928 V8 in there.
So I don't know how much they've modified to get the 928 V8 in there.
11-20-2012, 04:31 PM
#116
Three Wheelin'
If the weight is in front of the rear axle line and behind the front axle line its between the wheels, so yes you really would be. I'm not saying it's necessarily a good idea, I am saying doing it would not make the car handle worse which you suggested. Yes it would require some suspension work, but if anyone went to that much trouble to fab up what was required to mid mount an engine, a few changes to the suspension, including moving mounting points would be simple to include in the work.
Even the stock rear suspension design would work no better or worse as long as the spring rates matched the weight increase and bushings joints were beefed up where needed, but you might as well fab in a double a-arm rear while you are cutting the car to pieces.
A lot of the cars running in our Sports Sedan category move the whole engine and gearbox rearward by cutting the firewall to achieve a front mid engine. The fab work involved in that is just as complicated as it would be to mid mount something. And you aren't achieving quite the same effect as a rear mid engine. A rear weight bias is still superior for acceleration and braking.
Plenty of cars are setup with drivers only inches away from the engine. Firewalls and insulation are not that heavy. The torque tube only adds rigidity to the drivetrain which is lost by having the engine and gearbox so far apart in the first place, not to the car itself. Getting rid of the weight would be a win.
Even the stock rear suspension design would work no better or worse as long as the spring rates matched the weight increase and bushings joints were beefed up where needed, but you might as well fab in a double a-arm rear while you are cutting the car to pieces.
A lot of the cars running in our Sports Sedan category move the whole engine and gearbox rearward by cutting the firewall to achieve a front mid engine. The fab work involved in that is just as complicated as it would be to mid mount something. And you aren't achieving quite the same effect as a rear mid engine. A rear weight bias is still superior for acceleration and braking.
Plenty of cars are setup with drivers only inches away from the engine. Firewalls and insulation are not that heavy. The torque tube only adds rigidity to the drivetrain which is lost by having the engine and gearbox so far apart in the first place, not to the car itself. Getting rid of the weight would be a win.
If we're not careful, this will end up as pointless a discussion as those about putting Honda drivetrains in a BMC "mini". I put "mini" in quotes because it sorta defeats the purpose, why not keep the Honda drivetrain in the Honda?
Anyone wanting a mid-engined Porsche should just buy a 904, Cayman, 914 or Boxster (in that order...)
Of course, I'm not considering the "cool" factor. A mid-engined 944 would be sorta cool!
Cheers,
Mike
11-20-2012, 06:21 PM
#118
Rennlist Member
Personally, if I wanted to change the basic layout I would just buy a different car. Still, fun to think about the alternatives.
Discussing crazy ideas like mid mounted Audi engines does make a point though. There is a fundamental difference between the reasons why you would do an engine swap, of any kind, for a road car compared to a race car. For a road car it can be any reason, cool factor, money saving or just the engineering challenge. For racing it has to be clearly justified in terms of maximising performance within the regulations and the budget you have. In most cases developing the stock engine is going make the most sense.
You really have to get your car running again Pat, you are going nuts...lol
Discussing crazy ideas like mid mounted Audi engines does make a point though. There is a fundamental difference between the reasons why you would do an engine swap, of any kind, for a road car compared to a race car. For a road car it can be any reason, cool factor, money saving or just the engineering challenge. For racing it has to be clearly justified in terms of maximising performance within the regulations and the budget you have. In most cases developing the stock engine is going make the most sense.
You really have to get your car running again Pat, you are going nuts...lol
Last edited by Dubai944; 11-20-2012 at 06:38 PM.
11-20-2012, 11:01 PM
#119
Rennlist Junkie Forever
I stumbled upon this on the 928 board :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=Cx34NK1yB3M#
http://www.pureperformancemotorsport.com/cars.php?id=26
Ever seen this car up close, Duke?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=Cx34NK1yB3M#
http://www.pureperformancemotorsport.com/cars.php?id=26
Ever seen this car up close, Duke?
TonyG
11-20-2012, 11:55 PM
#120
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