Mahle, Arias, Woessner or JE pistons best?
10-05-2011, 09:39 AM
#50
Nordschleife Master
10-05-2011, 10:01 AM
#52
Nordschleife Master
10-05-2011, 07:31 PM
#56
Drifting
Hi Tom,
You had your issues at the beginning and had to sort a few things out. You went to Garrity's 951 engine building PCA class, and he knows what he is doing. I'm envious of you building your 3.0 motor yourself. You did a great job, and I'm proud of your efforts.
Garrity honestly thinks my motor would last a long time as is. He thinks the SLIGHT scuffing was a ring breaking in. We both agreed that this may be true, but once we tune for high boost, and if the pistons swell ANY more, we'll have a possible motor that won't last as long as I want.
We have only tuned using 91 fuel, and never got over 19psi street tuning. Since I don't have the time, talent, and proper shop to build this motor, I decided to use one builder that would be responsible for the whole package. The motor was running fine, and Garrity could have just pulled the head, saw slight scuffing, and told me it was fine. He didn't, and is now doing everything needed to make sure this motor can handle high boost, while easily running 91 fuel with fairly high boost pressure as compared to stock. He did MANY Mustang dyno runs with zero pinging. He advanced the timing till there were a few counts, not hundreds, a few, then took some timing out. There was no evidence that we had any issues.
The engineers at JE, engineers at US Chrome, and Garrity, also a mechanical engineer, are all working together to create a killer/reliable motor. It sucks that **** like this happens, but JE and US Chrome made a one thousandth .001 error in bore size. If we used Mahle, JE, or ANY other forged piston with 4032 alum, we would probably be fine. The forged 2618 pistons from ALL manufacturers swell slightly more than the factory type forged 4032 alum, espicially in a turbo motor. JE also thinks that they made the gap too small in the rings, and when on extended boost runs, the expansion of the piston and ring together may have closed the ring gap completely. They know, based on examination of the rings, pistons, and bores, taking another .001 out of the bores, and installing new rings with a slightly different gap, we will likely be done with this motor.
We did discuss using 4032 pistons at the beginning of this build, and none of the piston manufacturers recommend this material unless we planned on keeping the boost under 16psi. We talked with Ross, Mahle, JE, and a few other manufacturers that Garrity uses for his customers. Garrity uses JE in many of his motors, and they seem to have a very good working relationship. If you google many of the newer Porsche engine builder supply folks you will see what they are using. www.ebsracing.com offers Mahle and JE. Broadfoot Racing built some serious 951 motors. They choose to sleeve their high boost engines and used JE pistons. It's not because JE is better, they probably just had good service from them. JE has been great during this build, and stood behind their efforts.
Trust me, it's not the piston of choice, it's the quality of the build.
Will I ever do a custom car and motor again?.....Probably not. Will it be worth the effort, money, frustration, and time?....Probably once I'm back behind the wheel.
Before we pulled the head, we hit 485wt and 455whp on a dynojet and 383hp and 406tq on a Mustang in the same shop. This was with a bad BOV that wouldn't close properly. (Don't ever use Synapse on our cars) We've installed a new Tial unit, and when the block gets back from US Chrome we'll break in the new rings, and do 91 fuel runs up to about 19psi. Then we'll tune for race fuel, and see where the turbo stops making more power to redline in a controlled dyno room.
This may be OT, but anyone doing a stroker using stock bores should use proven facotry type 4032 pistons with proper coating for the alusil bores. Chris White can probably provide you with what you need.
This post was a tad OT, but I had a few minutes to type and got carried away.
You had your issues at the beginning and had to sort a few things out. You went to Garrity's 951 engine building PCA class, and he knows what he is doing. I'm envious of you building your 3.0 motor yourself. You did a great job, and I'm proud of your efforts.
Garrity honestly thinks my motor would last a long time as is. He thinks the SLIGHT scuffing was a ring breaking in. We both agreed that this may be true, but once we tune for high boost, and if the pistons swell ANY more, we'll have a possible motor that won't last as long as I want.
We have only tuned using 91 fuel, and never got over 19psi street tuning. Since I don't have the time, talent, and proper shop to build this motor, I decided to use one builder that would be responsible for the whole package. The motor was running fine, and Garrity could have just pulled the head, saw slight scuffing, and told me it was fine. He didn't, and is now doing everything needed to make sure this motor can handle high boost, while easily running 91 fuel with fairly high boost pressure as compared to stock. He did MANY Mustang dyno runs with zero pinging. He advanced the timing till there were a few counts, not hundreds, a few, then took some timing out. There was no evidence that we had any issues.
The engineers at JE, engineers at US Chrome, and Garrity, also a mechanical engineer, are all working together to create a killer/reliable motor. It sucks that **** like this happens, but JE and US Chrome made a one thousandth .001 error in bore size. If we used Mahle, JE, or ANY other forged piston with 4032 alum, we would probably be fine. The forged 2618 pistons from ALL manufacturers swell slightly more than the factory type forged 4032 alum, espicially in a turbo motor. JE also thinks that they made the gap too small in the rings, and when on extended boost runs, the expansion of the piston and ring together may have closed the ring gap completely. They know, based on examination of the rings, pistons, and bores, taking another .001 out of the bores, and installing new rings with a slightly different gap, we will likely be done with this motor.
We did discuss using 4032 pistons at the beginning of this build, and none of the piston manufacturers recommend this material unless we planned on keeping the boost under 16psi. We talked with Ross, Mahle, JE, and a few other manufacturers that Garrity uses for his customers. Garrity uses JE in many of his motors, and they seem to have a very good working relationship. If you google many of the newer Porsche engine builder supply folks you will see what they are using. www.ebsracing.com offers Mahle and JE. Broadfoot Racing built some serious 951 motors. They choose to sleeve their high boost engines and used JE pistons. It's not because JE is better, they probably just had good service from them. JE has been great during this build, and stood behind their efforts.
Trust me, it's not the piston of choice, it's the quality of the build.
Will I ever do a custom car and motor again?.....Probably not. Will it be worth the effort, money, frustration, and time?....Probably once I'm back behind the wheel.
Before we pulled the head, we hit 485wt and 455whp on a dynojet and 383hp and 406tq on a Mustang in the same shop. This was with a bad BOV that wouldn't close properly. (Don't ever use Synapse on our cars) We've installed a new Tial unit, and when the block gets back from US Chrome we'll break in the new rings, and do 91 fuel runs up to about 19psi. Then we'll tune for race fuel, and see where the turbo stops making more power to redline in a controlled dyno room.
This may be OT, but anyone doing a stroker using stock bores should use proven facotry type 4032 pistons with proper coating for the alusil bores. Chris White can probably provide you with what you need.
This post was a tad OT, but I had a few minutes to type and got carried away.
10-05-2011, 08:36 PM
#57
Drifting
[QUOTE=George D;8923244]
we hit 485wt and 455whp on a dynojet and 383hp and 406tq on a Mustang in the same shop. This was with a bad BOV that wouldn't close properly. /QUOTE]
Wanted to state this was done at 15psi, and we didn't get to 15psi till around 4200rpm because the Synapse BOV wasn't completely closing till after 4K. I'll never try new unproven parts again. SEMA awards don't mean much in my experience.
we hit 485wt and 455whp on a dynojet and 383hp and 406tq on a Mustang in the same shop. This was with a bad BOV that wouldn't close properly. /QUOTE]
Wanted to state this was done at 15psi, and we didn't get to 15psi till around 4200rpm because the Synapse BOV wasn't completely closing till after 4K. I'll never try new unproven parts again. SEMA awards don't mean much in my experience.
10-07-2011, 10:53 AM
#58
Advanced
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
More or less determined to hunt down a set of Wossners.
I am however still not feeling confident as to increase CR or if I should let it remain at 8,0.
Also:Is thermal barriers on the pistons necessary outside the racetrack? Is it worthwhile for a "standard" engine?
Cheers
Niels
I am however still not feeling confident as to increase CR or if I should let it remain at 8,0.
Also:Is thermal barriers on the pistons necessary outside the racetrack? Is it worthwhile for a "standard" engine?
Cheers
Niels
10-07-2011, 01:22 PM
#59
Three Wheelin'
Hi Tom,
You had your issues at the beginning and had to sort a few things out. You went to Garrity's 951 engine building PCA class, and he knows what he is doing. I'm envious of you building your 3.0 motor yourself. You did a great job, and I'm proud of your efforts.
Garrity honestly thinks my motor would last a long time as is. He thinks the SLIGHT scuffing was a ring breaking in. We both agreed that this may be true, but once we tune for high boost, and if the pistons swell ANY more, we'll have a possible motor that won't last as long as I want.
We have only tuned using 91 fuel, and never got over 19psi street tuning. Since I don't have the time, talent, and proper shop to build this motor, I decided to use one builder that would be responsible for the whole package. The motor was running fine, and Garrity could have just pulled the head, saw slight scuffing, and told me it was fine. He didn't, and is now doing everything needed to make sure this motor can handle high boost, while easily running 91 fuel with fairly high boost pressure as compared to stock. He did MANY Mustang dyno runs with zero pinging. He advanced the timing till there were a few counts, not hundreds, a few, then took some timing out. There was no evidence that we had any issues.
The engineers at JE, engineers at US Chrome, and Garrity, also a mechanical engineer, are all working together to create a killer/reliable motor. It sucks that **** like this happens, but JE and US Chrome made a one thousandth .001 error in bore size. If we used Mahle, JE, or ANY other forged piston with 4032 alum, we would probably be fine. The forged 2618 pistons from ALL manufacturers swell slightly more than the factory type forged 4032 alum, espicially in a turbo motor. JE also thinks that they made the gap too small in the rings, and when on extended boost runs, the expansion of the piston and ring together may have closed the ring gap completely. They know, based on examination of the rings, pistons, and bores, taking another .001 out of the bores, and installing new rings with a slightly different gap, we will likely be done with this motor.
We did discuss using 4032 pistons at the beginning of this build, and none of the piston manufacturers recommend this material unless we planned on keeping the boost under 16psi. We talked with Ross, Mahle, JE, and a few other manufacturers that Garrity uses for his customers. Garrity uses JE in many of his motors, and they seem to have a very good working relationship. If you google many of the newer Porsche engine builder supply folks you will see what they are using. www.ebsracing.com offers Mahle and JE. Broadfoot Racing built some serious 951 motors. They choose to sleeve their high boost engines and used JE pistons. It's not because JE is better, they probably just had good service from them. JE has been great during this build, and stood behind their efforts.
Trust me, it's not the piston of choice, it's the quality of the build.
Will I ever do a custom car and motor again?.....Probably not. Will it be worth the effort, money, frustration, and time?....Probably once I'm back behind the wheel.
Before we pulled the head, we hit 485wt and 455whp on a dynojet and 383hp and 406tq on a Mustang in the same shop. This was with a bad BOV that wouldn't close properly. (Don't ever use Synapse on our cars) We've installed a new Tial unit, and when the block gets back from US Chrome we'll break in the new rings, and do 91 fuel runs up to about 19psi. Then we'll tune for race fuel, and see where the turbo stops making more power to redline in a controlled dyno room.
This may be OT, but anyone doing a stroker using stock bores should use proven facotry type 4032 pistons with proper coating for the alusil bores. Chris White can probably provide you with what you need.
This post was a tad OT, but I had a few minutes to type and got carried away.
You had your issues at the beginning and had to sort a few things out. You went to Garrity's 951 engine building PCA class, and he knows what he is doing. I'm envious of you building your 3.0 motor yourself. You did a great job, and I'm proud of your efforts.
Garrity honestly thinks my motor would last a long time as is. He thinks the SLIGHT scuffing was a ring breaking in. We both agreed that this may be true, but once we tune for high boost, and if the pistons swell ANY more, we'll have a possible motor that won't last as long as I want.
We have only tuned using 91 fuel, and never got over 19psi street tuning. Since I don't have the time, talent, and proper shop to build this motor, I decided to use one builder that would be responsible for the whole package. The motor was running fine, and Garrity could have just pulled the head, saw slight scuffing, and told me it was fine. He didn't, and is now doing everything needed to make sure this motor can handle high boost, while easily running 91 fuel with fairly high boost pressure as compared to stock. He did MANY Mustang dyno runs with zero pinging. He advanced the timing till there were a few counts, not hundreds, a few, then took some timing out. There was no evidence that we had any issues.
The engineers at JE, engineers at US Chrome, and Garrity, also a mechanical engineer, are all working together to create a killer/reliable motor. It sucks that **** like this happens, but JE and US Chrome made a one thousandth .001 error in bore size. If we used Mahle, JE, or ANY other forged piston with 4032 alum, we would probably be fine. The forged 2618 pistons from ALL manufacturers swell slightly more than the factory type forged 4032 alum, espicially in a turbo motor. JE also thinks that they made the gap too small in the rings, and when on extended boost runs, the expansion of the piston and ring together may have closed the ring gap completely. They know, based on examination of the rings, pistons, and bores, taking another .001 out of the bores, and installing new rings with a slightly different gap, we will likely be done with this motor.
We did discuss using 4032 pistons at the beginning of this build, and none of the piston manufacturers recommend this material unless we planned on keeping the boost under 16psi. We talked with Ross, Mahle, JE, and a few other manufacturers that Garrity uses for his customers. Garrity uses JE in many of his motors, and they seem to have a very good working relationship. If you google many of the newer Porsche engine builder supply folks you will see what they are using. www.ebsracing.com offers Mahle and JE. Broadfoot Racing built some serious 951 motors. They choose to sleeve their high boost engines and used JE pistons. It's not because JE is better, they probably just had good service from them. JE has been great during this build, and stood behind their efforts.
Trust me, it's not the piston of choice, it's the quality of the build.
Will I ever do a custom car and motor again?.....Probably not. Will it be worth the effort, money, frustration, and time?....Probably once I'm back behind the wheel.
Before we pulled the head, we hit 485wt and 455whp on a dynojet and 383hp and 406tq on a Mustang in the same shop. This was with a bad BOV that wouldn't close properly. (Don't ever use Synapse on our cars) We've installed a new Tial unit, and when the block gets back from US Chrome we'll break in the new rings, and do 91 fuel runs up to about 19psi. Then we'll tune for race fuel, and see where the turbo stops making more power to redline in a controlled dyno room.
This may be OT, but anyone doing a stroker using stock bores should use proven facotry type 4032 pistons with proper coating for the alusil bores. Chris White can probably provide you with what you need.
This post was a tad OT, but I had a few minutes to type and got carried away.
Under the concept of KISS,what about:
A 968 Block and matching low comp pistons?
MID or Wet Sleeve (I think they are different correct?) Either of these could be a 2.8? The pistons/rings would come set for the bore they would be used with correct?
10-07-2011, 01:37 PM
#60
MID sleeves are wet sleeves (the original cylinder is honed out, and the sleeve sits in the coolant cavity). I think they make or have made dry sleeves, but I haven't heard anything about them.