Mahle, Arias, Woessner or JE pistons best?
10-03-2011, 05:40 AM
#31
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I'll keep you guys posted on the 2.8L build for the track car coming up this winter. I finally got the USCG mate test out of the way, bought the wife new GLK 350, so now time to play. Jim and I decided to build the 2.8L since I have a set of Mahle 2.8 pistons that I got from Andial, 3.0L crank, and a set of Wossner rods. It will be fed by a VR stage IV kit with oil cooled turbo, run 16-17 psi on 104 unleaded. Jim has a 2.8L in his red 86 street car, fed by the same setup on pump gas; we'll use a race chip and race gas.
Duffin Engine in San Antonio will do the machining as they have on all the engines we've built, we just have to decide on the final clearance...thinking it will be .0012" or .030mm
FWIW, the new Mahle pistons come with Ferroprint iron coating, I think Lindsey took over the ones that I was dealing with but not sure if they can get them in 2.8L. If not, you can use shorter rods with the 3.0L crank if you don't have 2.8L pistons where the wrist pin location is changed. The old coating, Ferrostan, is no longer done due to environmental restrictions.
Duffin work on blocks
Duffin Engine in San Antonio will do the machining as they have on all the engines we've built, we just have to decide on the final clearance...thinking it will be .0012" or .030mm
FWIW, the new Mahle pistons come with Ferroprint iron coating, I think Lindsey took over the ones that I was dealing with but not sure if they can get them in 2.8L. If not, you can use shorter rods with the 3.0L crank if you don't have 2.8L pistons where the wrist pin location is changed. The old coating, Ferrostan, is no longer done due to environmental restrictions.
Duffin work on blocks
Last edited by Ski; 10-03-2011 at 06:02 AM.
10-03-2011, 05:51 AM
#32
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Mahle 100.5, standard piston, see the ferroprint on the skirt? This is what's in the track car now...have about 10 hours on them and put down 349, 344 to the rear wheels.
10-03-2011, 08:12 AM
#33
Nordschleife Master
200$ / piston for custom Mahle's? Sounds way off to me, last time I heard they were at least $1800 a set. Wössners are around $1000.
I've bought Wössner stuff from both Lindsey and direct from Germany (since I have my own company).
I've bought Wössner stuff from both Lindsey and direct from Germany (since I have my own company).
10-03-2011, 02:43 PM
#38
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Ok time for some piston schooling…
There are several things to think about before you choose your piston de jour.
Frist – what alloy do you want? 2618 or 4032?
2618 – Thought by many to be ‘stronger’ alloy and a better choice for all out racing. Down side - Higher expansion ratio, faster wear and the alloy is slightly heavier than 4032. The 2618 alloy will start to deform under extremely high loads (caused by miss tuning)
4032 – Quieter on start up, better long term wear. The 4032 alloy will crack under extremely high loads (caused by miss tuning)
In truth either alloy will stand up to hard use in a 944 if the tuning is correct.
Stock pistons are very similar to the 4032 alloy. The original Mahle stroker pistons were 4032. Wossner use 4032 for almost all their pistons. JE will use either alloy but they prefer to use the 2618 on the high performance pistons.
I have used both and I have seen failures with both. They difference in strength in very small. If your engine goes into hard detonation while on boost at the track neither alloy will survive!
Second – piston manufacturer –
Mahle – makes the ‘standard’ stroker or 3.0 piston in batches every now and then. Seems to drive up the price and demand. They used to be the only alusil compatible pitons available and the price reflected that. I have not worked with them.
JE – big player in domestic racing pistons. They do make Porsche pistons to order but they (in my opinion) don’t seem to want to cater to small production runs. Not big on custom engineering designs. Many of their forged blanks are made with chevy valve reliefs that are visible on the underside of the pistons – extra charge to have these machined off. They like to work in SAE measurements instead of metric. Most ring packs are SAE sized. The coatings they offer were not specifically developed for Alusil but they claim that they work. I have heard pro and con comments from people that have tried their alusil coating – I have not tired it.
Wossner – German piston manufacturer specializing in euro cars. I like working with Wossner because each and every order gets its own set of very detailed engineering drawings that I must approve before they manufacture the pistons. They will make virtually anything I ask. You can specify any finished diameter in .01mm steps – nice for making up replacement pistons – you don’t have to go to the next ‘standard’ size. Wossner developed a coating expressly for Alusil blocks, it has been approved by BMW for their blocks (Porsche wont’’ approve of anything!). I have one set of wossners that have over 100 track days – no measurable change in leakdown.
Customer Service -
To be truthful all the piston manufacturers can be a little unpredictable in delivery times. I do get annoyed with JE because they offer a 50% ‘fast delivery’ upcharge. This means that if I order a set of pistons and somebody pays the 50% for their pistons to be made first my order will be delayed. If I order pistons and I am told 6 weeks I expect to have them in 6 weeks – not 8 weeks because orders made after mine coughed up the 50% fee.
I have also had a several sets of JE’s that were missed fabricated and even though it was their fault the replacement set were added to the back of the que – another 6 week wait.
I use almost all Wossners now because the engineers will work with me and I can get exactly what I want. I also like the ring packs they supply – lighter and a nicer finish that the standard stuff JE supplies.
There are several things to think about before you choose your piston de jour.
Frist – what alloy do you want? 2618 or 4032?
2618 – Thought by many to be ‘stronger’ alloy and a better choice for all out racing. Down side - Higher expansion ratio, faster wear and the alloy is slightly heavier than 4032. The 2618 alloy will start to deform under extremely high loads (caused by miss tuning)
4032 – Quieter on start up, better long term wear. The 4032 alloy will crack under extremely high loads (caused by miss tuning)
In truth either alloy will stand up to hard use in a 944 if the tuning is correct.
Stock pistons are very similar to the 4032 alloy. The original Mahle stroker pistons were 4032. Wossner use 4032 for almost all their pistons. JE will use either alloy but they prefer to use the 2618 on the high performance pistons.
I have used both and I have seen failures with both. They difference in strength in very small. If your engine goes into hard detonation while on boost at the track neither alloy will survive!
Second – piston manufacturer –
Mahle – makes the ‘standard’ stroker or 3.0 piston in batches every now and then. Seems to drive up the price and demand. They used to be the only alusil compatible pitons available and the price reflected that. I have not worked with them.
JE – big player in domestic racing pistons. They do make Porsche pistons to order but they (in my opinion) don’t seem to want to cater to small production runs. Not big on custom engineering designs. Many of their forged blanks are made with chevy valve reliefs that are visible on the underside of the pistons – extra charge to have these machined off. They like to work in SAE measurements instead of metric. Most ring packs are SAE sized. The coatings they offer were not specifically developed for Alusil but they claim that they work. I have heard pro and con comments from people that have tried their alusil coating – I have not tired it.
Wossner – German piston manufacturer specializing in euro cars. I like working with Wossner because each and every order gets its own set of very detailed engineering drawings that I must approve before they manufacture the pistons. They will make virtually anything I ask. You can specify any finished diameter in .01mm steps – nice for making up replacement pistons – you don’t have to go to the next ‘standard’ size. Wossner developed a coating expressly for Alusil blocks, it has been approved by BMW for their blocks (Porsche wont’’ approve of anything!). I have one set of wossners that have over 100 track days – no measurable change in leakdown.
Customer Service -
To be truthful all the piston manufacturers can be a little unpredictable in delivery times. I do get annoyed with JE because they offer a 50% ‘fast delivery’ upcharge. This means that if I order a set of pistons and somebody pays the 50% for their pistons to be made first my order will be delayed. If I order pistons and I am told 6 weeks I expect to have them in 6 weeks – not 8 weeks because orders made after mine coughed up the 50% fee.
I have also had a several sets of JE’s that were missed fabricated and even though it was their fault the replacement set were added to the back of the que – another 6 week wait.
I use almost all Wossners now because the engineers will work with me and I can get exactly what I want. I also like the ring packs they supply – lighter and a nicer finish that the standard stuff JE supplies.
10-03-2011, 02:48 PM
#39
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Sure, you can make over 350rwhp with a 2.5 – but you are stressing it out a lot. If you run a 2.5 at boost levels to produce 350rwhp at the rack you will have issues unless you have spent a lot of $ to deal with the stress (both heat and power)
10-03-2011, 04:55 PM
#41
Three Wheelin'
Maybe you missed the ‘reliable’ qualifier in his statement!
Sure, you can make over 350rwhp with a 2.5 – but you are stressing it out a lot. If you run a 2.5 at boost levels to produce 350rwhp at the rack you will have issues unless you have spent a lot of $ to deal with the stress (both heat and power)
Sure, you can make over 350rwhp with a 2.5 – but you are stressing it out a lot. If you run a 2.5 at boost levels to produce 350rwhp at the rack you will have issues unless you have spent a lot of $ to deal with the stress (both heat and power)
But to your point I'll take the puppy to the dyno and see what she puts down in the real world. I was just going off what my friend (who was the PO) said.
Course I'll have to get it running first!
Note: current non running condition not engine related!
10-04-2011, 06:56 PM
#42
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Thanks again for alle the good info I am getting in this thread.
I have contacted Woessner directly and got an offer that was approx. 40% higher than the price in the US :-(
Maybe Duke got a better deal? :-)
As Chris mentioned one of my key words is "reliability"! I am by no means rich (not even close, sadly as I like way to many expensive things :-)) When I put out the money I need to be sure things work as I can't afford doing things twice or blowing up nternals in the engine :-(
@87944Turbo - thank you for your offer - I believe that I will be better off with either 100,0 or 100.5 mm pistons as my block is pretty good and I am unsure of companies in Denmark being able to increase the bore to 101mm alusil cylinders. Otherwise I would happily have bought from you :-)
@Chris White: Thank you for your thorough input: What do you think of raising the compression? Is it overkill for spool and may give other problems or???
@Adonnay: I plan on custom chips and either LR MAF or even better Rogue Tuning.
@All: who is the better source for Woessner pistons these days?
Cheers
Niels
PS: Nice to hear That Adonay also is playing with the stroker idea - thought I was the only person in the world still aiming at that nice sounding 2.8 (My dad has an original 2.8 RSR engine from 1973 so I really like the sound of that number :-))
I have contacted Woessner directly and got an offer that was approx. 40% higher than the price in the US :-(
Maybe Duke got a better deal? :-)
As Chris mentioned one of my key words is "reliability"! I am by no means rich (not even close, sadly as I like way to many expensive things :-)) When I put out the money I need to be sure things work as I can't afford doing things twice or blowing up nternals in the engine :-(
@87944Turbo - thank you for your offer - I believe that I will be better off with either 100,0 or 100.5 mm pistons as my block is pretty good and I am unsure of companies in Denmark being able to increase the bore to 101mm alusil cylinders. Otherwise I would happily have bought from you :-)
@Chris White: Thank you for your thorough input: What do you think of raising the compression? Is it overkill for spool and may give other problems or???
@Adonnay: I plan on custom chips and either LR MAF or even better Rogue Tuning.
@All: who is the better source for Woessner pistons these days?
Cheers
Niels
PS: Nice to hear That Adonay also is playing with the stroker idea - thought I was the only person in the world still aiming at that nice sounding 2.8 (My dad has an original 2.8 RSR engine from 1973 so I really like the sound of that number :-))
10-04-2011, 07:57 PM
#43
Drifting
Ok time for some piston schooling…
There are several things to think about before you choose your piston de jour.
Frist – what alloy do you want? 2618 or 4032?
2618 – Thought by many to be ‘stronger’ alloy and a better choice for all out racing. Down side - Higher expansion ratio, faster wear and the alloy is slightly heavier than 4032. The 2618 alloy will start to deform under extremely high loads (caused by miss tuning)
4032 – Quieter on start up, better long term wear. The 4032 alloy will crack under extremely high loads (caused by miss tuning)
In truth either alloy will stand up to hard use in a 944 if the tuning is correct.
Stock pistons are very similar to the 4032 alloy. The original Mahle stroker pistons were 4032. Wossner use 4032 for almost all their pistons. JE will use either alloy but they prefer to use the 2618 on the high performance pistons.
I have used both and I have seen failures with both. They difference in strength in very small. If your engine goes into hard detonation while on boost at the track neither alloy will survive!
Second – piston manufacturer –
Mahle – makes the ‘standard’ stroker or 3.0 piston in batches every now and then. Seems to drive up the price and demand. They used to be the only alusil compatible pitons available and the price reflected that. I have not worked with them.
JE – big player in domestic racing pistons. They do make Porsche pistons to order but they (in my opinion) don’t seem to want to cater to small production runs. Not big on custom engineering designs. Many of their forged blanks are made with chevy valve reliefs that are visible on the underside of the pistons – extra charge to have these machined off. They like to work in SAE measurements instead of metric. Most ring packs are SAE sized. The coatings they offer were not specifically developed for Alusil but they claim that they work. I have heard pro and con comments from people that have tried their alusil coating – I have not tired it.
Wossner – German piston manufacturer specializing in euro cars. I like working with Wossner because each and every order gets its own set of very detailed engineering drawings that I must approve before they manufacture the pistons. They will make virtually anything I ask. You can specify any finished diameter in .01mm steps – nice for making up replacement pistons – you don’t have to go to the next ‘standard’ size. Wossner developed a coating expressly for Alusil blocks, it has been approved by BMW for their blocks (Porsche wont’’ approve of anything!). I have one set of wossners that have over 100 track days – no measurable change in leakdown.
Customer Service -
To be truthful all the piston manufacturers can be a little unpredictable in delivery times. I do get annoyed with JE because they offer a 50% ‘fast delivery’ upcharge. This means that if I order a set of pistons and somebody pays the 50% for their pistons to be made first my order will be delayed. If I order pistons and I am told 6 weeks I expect to have them in 6 weeks – not 8 weeks because orders made after mine coughed up the 50% fee.
I have also had a several sets of JE’s that were missed fabricated and even though it was their fault the replacement set were added to the back of the que – another 6 week wait.
I use almost all Wossners now because the engineers will work with me and I can get exactly what I want. I also like the ring packs they supply – lighter and a nicer finish that the standard stuff JE supplies.
There are several things to think about before you choose your piston de jour.
Frist – what alloy do you want? 2618 or 4032?
2618 – Thought by many to be ‘stronger’ alloy and a better choice for all out racing. Down side - Higher expansion ratio, faster wear and the alloy is slightly heavier than 4032. The 2618 alloy will start to deform under extremely high loads (caused by miss tuning)
4032 – Quieter on start up, better long term wear. The 4032 alloy will crack under extremely high loads (caused by miss tuning)
In truth either alloy will stand up to hard use in a 944 if the tuning is correct.
Stock pistons are very similar to the 4032 alloy. The original Mahle stroker pistons were 4032. Wossner use 4032 for almost all their pistons. JE will use either alloy but they prefer to use the 2618 on the high performance pistons.
I have used both and I have seen failures with both. They difference in strength in very small. If your engine goes into hard detonation while on boost at the track neither alloy will survive!
Second – piston manufacturer –
Mahle – makes the ‘standard’ stroker or 3.0 piston in batches every now and then. Seems to drive up the price and demand. They used to be the only alusil compatible pitons available and the price reflected that. I have not worked with them.
JE – big player in domestic racing pistons. They do make Porsche pistons to order but they (in my opinion) don’t seem to want to cater to small production runs. Not big on custom engineering designs. Many of their forged blanks are made with chevy valve reliefs that are visible on the underside of the pistons – extra charge to have these machined off. They like to work in SAE measurements instead of metric. Most ring packs are SAE sized. The coatings they offer were not specifically developed for Alusil but they claim that they work. I have heard pro and con comments from people that have tried their alusil coating – I have not tired it.
Wossner – German piston manufacturer specializing in euro cars. I like working with Wossner because each and every order gets its own set of very detailed engineering drawings that I must approve before they manufacture the pistons. They will make virtually anything I ask. You can specify any finished diameter in .01mm steps – nice for making up replacement pistons – you don’t have to go to the next ‘standard’ size. Wossner developed a coating expressly for Alusil blocks, it has been approved by BMW for their blocks (Porsche wont’’ approve of anything!). I have one set of wossners that have over 100 track days – no measurable change in leakdown.
Customer Service -
To be truthful all the piston manufacturers can be a little unpredictable in delivery times. I do get annoyed with JE because they offer a 50% ‘fast delivery’ upcharge. This means that if I order a set of pistons and somebody pays the 50% for their pistons to be made first my order will be delayed. If I order pistons and I am told 6 weeks I expect to have them in 6 weeks – not 8 weeks because orders made after mine coughed up the 50% fee.
I have also had a several sets of JE’s that were missed fabricated and even though it was their fault the replacement set were added to the back of the que – another 6 week wait.
I use almost all Wossners now because the engineers will work with me and I can get exactly what I want. I also like the ring packs they supply – lighter and a nicer finish that the standard stuff JE supplies.
My engine builder is honoring his warranty, US Chrome is covering the additional bore work and shipping, and JE sent us new rings at no cost. These motors are difficult to get perfect, and this delay's my build another month.
Point here is to use factory type materials if you are just looking at a 15-17psi motor. Custom stuff takes much more time, and requires some trial and error.
10-04-2011, 08:59 PM
#44
Three Wheelin'
We had US Chrome and JE work together to build this motor. Both companies worked together to come up with the piston size. We told JE we wanted no piston slap. US Chrome told JE the bore size and head material, and JE sent the pistons. We were told to break in the motor, then pull the head to make sure the bores were still perfect. Well, we pulled the head and there was some slight scuffing in number four. JE sent us new rings, and US Chrome is going to hone another .1000th out of each cylinder. The pistons looked as new, and JE, US Chrome, and my engine builder stated it would probably last a very long time as is but will take care of the issue. The scuffing was slight, but still noticeable. It could have been ring breakin, but all parties are honoring their work with integrity.
My engine builder is honoring his warranty, US Chrome is covering the additional bore work and shipping, and JE sent us new rings at no cost. These motors are difficult to get perfect, and this delay's my build another month.
Point here is to use factory type materials if you are just looking at a 15-17psi motor. Custom stuff takes much more time, and requires some trial and error.
My engine builder is honoring his warranty, US Chrome is covering the additional bore work and shipping, and JE sent us new rings at no cost. These motors are difficult to get perfect, and this delay's my build another month.
Point here is to use factory type materials if you are just looking at a 15-17psi motor. Custom stuff takes much more time, and requires some trial and error.
Yeah, I'm gonna run with the little dawgs...cause it's easier to keep up!
