Patrick's build thread. (IT RUNS!)
04-22-2012, 11:05 PM
#496
Three Wheelin'
Ouch (in more ways than one). Glad to hear you're going to get checked out this morning, potential internal injuries aren't something you want to mess around with.
One thing that I have always wondered (or haven't been able to connect all the dots in my brain), when you increase spring rate (I believe you are around 900/1100?) that changes the rate at which weight shifts around the car, yes? Does this impact how much you can correct/how fast you need to react?
And totally unrelated, but that Alfasud just reminded me of a pipe-dream project I used to have: a 13B turbo Triumph Herald. That project died on step 1: find a Triumph Herald.
One thing that I have always wondered (or haven't been able to connect all the dots in my brain), when you increase spring rate (I believe you are around 900/1100?) that changes the rate at which weight shifts around the car, yes? Does this impact how much you can correct/how fast you need to react?
And totally unrelated, but that Alfasud just reminded me of a pipe-dream project I used to have: a 13B turbo Triumph Herald. That project died on step 1: find a Triumph Herald.
04-22-2012, 11:07 PM
#497
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Patrick, I'm a bit of a bad timing straight forward guy that comes out harsh many times and there may not be an excuse for it, but in this case it is meant as friendly advice that can be taken with concern for an internet friend.
Your first few quick corrections were perfect and well played. It was that large initial hand over hand counter steer correction that was way too much. It is so difficult to keep from doing (instinct). ...I'm thinking you know this and were just more on edge in this case because of all the quick corrections you just had to do for almost no visible reason, and were expecting more of a tire release than what you got, so the large correction ensued. In that case, I certainly think I might have made the same mistake. But if that was not the case, and the over correction was instinct, try to hold back (easier said than done there) less is more.
I do understand how easy it is to say from a comfy computer while just watching the video sipping on some tea. I am also not sayin that I am immune to such mistakes. But, from this nice calm comfy armchair, I would have probably only gone 90-180 deg turn (of the steering wheel) of correction for that slip. I actually try to under correct as much as possible, it usually ends up in a slow steady spin if you do not throw enough in there, which is not too bad in many cases.
As for the down shift. Don't worry about that. It was a "can't hurt at this point" sort of thing and no criticism can really be given. I think it showed you kept some sort of cool and were trying to think. Definitely a race car driver in that helmet.
Your first few quick corrections were perfect and well played. It was that large initial hand over hand counter steer correction that was way too much. It is so difficult to keep from doing (instinct). ...I'm thinking you know this and were just more on edge in this case because of all the quick corrections you just had to do for almost no visible reason, and were expecting more of a tire release than what you got, so the large correction ensued. In that case, I certainly think I might have made the same mistake. But if that was not the case, and the over correction was instinct, try to hold back (easier said than done there) less is more.
I do understand how easy it is to say from a comfy computer while just watching the video sipping on some tea. I am also not sayin that I am immune to such mistakes. But, from this nice calm comfy armchair, I would have probably only gone 90-180 deg turn (of the steering wheel) of correction for that slip. I actually try to under correct as much as possible, it usually ends up in a slow steady spin if you do not throw enough in there, which is not too bad in many cases.
As for the down shift. Don't worry about that. It was a "can't hurt at this point" sort of thing and no criticism can really be given. I think it showed you kept some sort of cool and were trying to think. Definitely a race car driver in that helmet.
Patrick, as I commented, I'm glad you're okay. That was a hard hit. Get her back together and get back at it! onec again...I'm REALLY GLAD that you are okay!
04-23-2012, 12:12 AM
#498
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Well the ribs are fractured and while the neck is pretty traumatised, it's not in any danger of further damage by way of X-Rays. Now that the adrenalin has worn off, things are tightening up and starting to tickle.
As for the corrections and discussion, well don't worry, I am happy to have people's opinion and don't take it personally. Of course an event like this dents the ego and confidence as much as the panels, but I think in my 'defense' I have to point out that there were two mitigating circumstances going on. One was the absolute conscious thought of not letting the outside tyres get onto the grass and causing a rapid hard left hand turn to the inside wall. This was a very clear and pervading thought as I was going through this. We have seen plenty of video or been at the track when this has happened. Generally presents a worse result than the one I experienced. So as I started to lose it to the right I was very much trying to straighten the car up. Of course this may have produced an over reaction based on my concerns of the inside wall. I'm sort of happy that at least I was thinking while this was all unfolding in beautiful 'Surround sound You 'R' There 3-D'. You can throw in 'Scratch and Smell' there too if you like!
The other thing was that previously when I've had a loss of traction on the circuit due to too late braking or just too fast into a corner you have the advantage of all the friction between tyres and tarmac. With this one I had grip, then no grip. So there was very little chance of keeping it on the road surface. I'm sure a pro would have handled the situation a lot better than me, but it's only when you get into these situations that you are confronted by whatever is in your artillery. If you don't have the moves then it's hard to consciously pull them out. Instinct is ok but experience and knowledge is better.
To add, with the extra rubber and springs when they do give away it's just faster. (900/1100) If I'm honest, I wasn't entirely convinced that we'd got really close to setting the car up yet. All we'd done is go in with certain bump and rebound settings, taken the rear sway off as the car was too taily with it. We'd made some minor adjustments to the rears and went out again. The car was feeling a little nervous or jittery even in a straight line in the morning. It was a bit better during the ill fated session. There was still a lot of work to be done.
Just a damned shame to get this far and bin it first time out. Took a lot of time, money, effort and now we're back quite a few places. Like playing Snakes and Ladders!
Onwards!
As for the corrections and discussion, well don't worry, I am happy to have people's opinion and don't take it personally. Of course an event like this dents the ego and confidence as much as the panels, but I think in my 'defense' I have to point out that there were two mitigating circumstances going on. One was the absolute conscious thought of not letting the outside tyres get onto the grass and causing a rapid hard left hand turn to the inside wall. This was a very clear and pervading thought as I was going through this. We have seen plenty of video or been at the track when this has happened. Generally presents a worse result than the one I experienced. So as I started to lose it to the right I was very much trying to straighten the car up. Of course this may have produced an over reaction based on my concerns of the inside wall. I'm sort of happy that at least I was thinking while this was all unfolding in beautiful 'Surround sound You 'R' There 3-D'. You can throw in 'Scratch and Smell' there too if you like!
The other thing was that previously when I've had a loss of traction on the circuit due to too late braking or just too fast into a corner you have the advantage of all the friction between tyres and tarmac. With this one I had grip, then no grip. So there was very little chance of keeping it on the road surface. I'm sure a pro would have handled the situation a lot better than me, but it's only when you get into these situations that you are confronted by whatever is in your artillery. If you don't have the moves then it's hard to consciously pull them out. Instinct is ok but experience and knowledge is better.
To add, with the extra rubber and springs when they do give away it's just faster. (900/1100) If I'm honest, I wasn't entirely convinced that we'd got really close to setting the car up yet. All we'd done is go in with certain bump and rebound settings, taken the rear sway off as the car was too taily with it. We'd made some minor adjustments to the rears and went out again. The car was feeling a little nervous or jittery even in a straight line in the morning. It was a bit better during the ill fated session. There was still a lot of work to be done.
Just a damned shame to get this far and bin it first time out. Took a lot of time, money, effort and now we're back quite a few places. Like playing Snakes and Ladders!
Onwards!
04-23-2012, 12:18 AM
#499
Basic Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Well the ribs are fractured and while the neck is pretty traumatised, it's not in any danger of further damage by way of X-Rays. Now that the adrenalin has worn off, things are tightening up and starting to tickle.
As for the corrections and discussion, well don't worry, I am happy to have people's opinion and don't take it personally. Of course an event like this dents the ego and confidence as much as the panels, but I think in my 'defense' I have to point out that there were two mitigating circumstances going on. One was the absolute conscious thought of not letting the outside tyres get onto the grass and causing a rapid hard left hand turn to the inside wall. This was a very clear and pervading thought as I was going through this. We have seen plenty of video or been at the track when this has happened. Generally presents a worse result than the one I experienced. So as I started to lose it to the right I was very much trying to straighten the car up. Of course this may have produced an over reaction based on my concerns of the inside wall. I'm sort of happy that at least I was thinking while this was all unfolding in beautiful 'Surround sound You 'R' There 3-D'. You can throw in 'Scratch and Smell' there too if you like!
The other thing was that previously when I've had a loss of traction on the circuit due to too late braking or just too fast into a corner you have the advantage of all the friction between tyres and tarmac. With this one I had grip, then no grip. So there was very little chance of keeping it on the road surface. I'm sure a pro would have handled the situation a lot better than me, but it's only when you get into these situations that you are confronted by whatever is in your artillery. If you don't have the moves then it's hard to consciously pull them out. Instinct is ok but experience and knowledge is better.
To add, with the extra rubber and springs when they do give away it's just faster. (900/1100) If I'm honest, I wasn't entirely convinced that we'd got really close to setting the car up yet. All we'd done is go in with certain bump and rebound settings, taken the rear sway off as the car was too taily with it. We'd made some minor adjustments to the rears and went out again. The car was feeling a little nervous or jittery even in a straight line in the morning. It was a bit better during the ill fated session. There was still a lot of work to be done.
Just a damned shame to get this far and bin it first time out. Took a lot of time, money, effort and now we're back quite a few places. Like playing Snakes and Ladders!
Onwards!
As for the corrections and discussion, well don't worry, I am happy to have people's opinion and don't take it personally. Of course an event like this dents the ego and confidence as much as the panels, but I think in my 'defense' I have to point out that there were two mitigating circumstances going on. One was the absolute conscious thought of not letting the outside tyres get onto the grass and causing a rapid hard left hand turn to the inside wall. This was a very clear and pervading thought as I was going through this. We have seen plenty of video or been at the track when this has happened. Generally presents a worse result than the one I experienced. So as I started to lose it to the right I was very much trying to straighten the car up. Of course this may have produced an over reaction based on my concerns of the inside wall. I'm sort of happy that at least I was thinking while this was all unfolding in beautiful 'Surround sound You 'R' There 3-D'. You can throw in 'Scratch and Smell' there too if you like!
The other thing was that previously when I've had a loss of traction on the circuit due to too late braking or just too fast into a corner you have the advantage of all the friction between tyres and tarmac. With this one I had grip, then no grip. So there was very little chance of keeping it on the road surface. I'm sure a pro would have handled the situation a lot better than me, but it's only when you get into these situations that you are confronted by whatever is in your artillery. If you don't have the moves then it's hard to consciously pull them out. Instinct is ok but experience and knowledge is better.
To add, with the extra rubber and springs when they do give away it's just faster. (900/1100) If I'm honest, I wasn't entirely convinced that we'd got really close to setting the car up yet. All we'd done is go in with certain bump and rebound settings, taken the rear sway off as the car was too taily with it. We'd made some minor adjustments to the rears and went out again. The car was feeling a little nervous or jittery even in a straight line in the morning. It was a bit better during the ill fated session. There was still a lot of work to be done.
Just a damned shame to get this far and bin it first time out. Took a lot of time, money, effort and now we're back quite a few places. Like playing Snakes and Ladders!
Onwards!
04-23-2012, 01:01 AM
#500
Race Car
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: TEXAS
Posts: 4,247
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It really is amazing how fast it happens with the stiffer set up. It's also clear that there was something else going on there on the track. Some spill or something.
It's good to read your last statement.
Take Care Sir.
It's good to read your last statement.
Take Care Sir.
04-23-2012, 01:02 AM
#501
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
One thing that I mention to experienced students is how to crash a car, Yeah, that sounds like a strange thing to say/teach but there is an important point. 90% of all wall hits are caused by trying to correct too much. If you ‘catch’ the car after the initial slip you have added rotational momentum and the second ‘catch’ will be much harder. Sawing away on the wheel keeps amplifying the oscillations until its completely out of control.
The skill in controlling a car is knowing that if you lock up the tires the car will continue a straight line on whatever tangent you are heading. In reality that is the only factor you can accurately control when the **** hits the fan. The natural instinct is to keep trying to save the car – more often than not this will cause more damage.
A couple of weeks ago I was at VIR helping set up a customer’s boxster and doing some coaching. I told him that VIR was a good track to test the limits because of the big run off at most corners. He wanted me to run some laps to see what the car was capable of and to push the limits – for those that know VIR I was able to run the boxster (it has a full GT3 suspension, Motons and lots of trick parts) from the Left Hook to South Bend without lifting off the throttle….which got me to South bend a little too hot. South bend drops off and the car got light and started to spin, mid engine cars do not like to stop spinning!
You can see a quick reaction to try and stop the spin - trying to ‘catch’ it. After that the only way to control the spin was with the brakes – you can hear the tires lock up after the car had rotated and was pointed down the track and then no brakes and brakes again to control where the car was going. While all that was going on there is no input to the wheel – that will only **** off the car!!
I can’t really help much when it comes to learning how to ‘crash’ – I can only mention what works – but once it happens to you there is no conscious plan – its all reaction.
Trying to catch a car with lots of steering input only has a small chance of working on the first reaction – after that it will only make things worse.
The skill in controlling a car is knowing that if you lock up the tires the car will continue a straight line on whatever tangent you are heading. In reality that is the only factor you can accurately control when the **** hits the fan. The natural instinct is to keep trying to save the car – more often than not this will cause more damage.
A couple of weeks ago I was at VIR helping set up a customer’s boxster and doing some coaching. I told him that VIR was a good track to test the limits because of the big run off at most corners. He wanted me to run some laps to see what the car was capable of and to push the limits – for those that know VIR I was able to run the boxster (it has a full GT3 suspension, Motons and lots of trick parts) from the Left Hook to South Bend without lifting off the throttle….which got me to South bend a little too hot. South bend drops off and the car got light and started to spin, mid engine cars do not like to stop spinning!
You can see a quick reaction to try and stop the spin - trying to ‘catch’ it. After that the only way to control the spin was with the brakes – you can hear the tires lock up after the car had rotated and was pointed down the track and then no brakes and brakes again to control where the car was going. While all that was going on there is no input to the wheel – that will only **** off the car!!
I can’t really help much when it comes to learning how to ‘crash’ – I can only mention what works – but once it happens to you there is no conscious plan – its all reaction.
Trying to catch a car with lots of steering input only has a small chance of working on the first reaction – after that it will only make things worse.
04-23-2012, 01:42 AM
#502
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
Want to see it done again?!? Note that the car started to come around and I got it to keep going straight down the track – backwards. That really lengthened the amount of asphalt I could use and the car slowed down until it was time for me to get out of the way!
BTW – the other important part of the proper way to crash it to understand that the brakes only slow the car on asphalt - so all the time/space you use up sawing at the wheel is asphalt that could have been used to slow the car.
BTW – the other important part of the proper way to crash it to understand that the brakes only slow the car on asphalt - so all the time/space you use up sawing at the wheel is asphalt that could have been used to slow the car.
04-23-2012, 02:28 AM
#503
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Well the ribs are fractured and while the neck is pretty traumatised, it's not in any danger of further damage by way of X-Rays. Now that the adrenalin has worn off, things are tightening up and starting to tickle.
As for the corrections and discussion, well don't worry, I am happy to have people's opinion and don't take it personally. Of course an event like this dents the ego and confidence as much as the panels, but I think in my 'defense' I have to point out that there were two mitigating circumstances going on. One was the absolute conscious thought of not letting the outside tyres get onto the grass and causing a rapid hard left hand turn to the inside wall. This was a very clear and pervading thought as I was going through this. We have seen plenty of video or been at the track when this has happened. Generally presents a worse result than the one I experienced. So as I started to lose it to the right I was very much trying to straighten the car up. Of course this may have produced an over reaction based on my concerns of the inside wall. I'm sort of happy that at least I was thinking while this was all unfolding in beautiful 'Surround sound You 'R' There 3-D'. You can throw in 'Scratch and Smell' there too if you like!
The other thing was that previously when I've had a loss of traction on the circuit due to too late braking or just too fast into a corner you have the advantage of all the friction between tyres and tarmac. With this one I had grip, then no grip. So there was very little chance of keeping it on the road surface. I'm sure a pro would have handled the situation a lot better than me, but it's only when you get into these situations that you are confronted by whatever is in your artillery. If you don't have the moves then it's hard to consciously pull them out. Instinct is ok but experience and knowledge is better.
To add, with the extra rubber and springs when they do give away it's just faster. (900/1100) If I'm honest, I wasn't entirely convinced that we'd got really close to setting the car up yet. All we'd done is go in with certain bump and rebound settings, taken the rear sway off as the car was too taily with it. We'd made some minor adjustments to the rears and went out again. The car was feeling a little nervous or jittery even in a straight line in the morning. It was a bit better during the ill fated session. There was still a lot of work to be done.
Just a damned shame to get this far and bin it first time out. Took a lot of time, money, effort and now we're back quite a few places. Like playing Snakes and Ladders!
Onwards!
As for the corrections and discussion, well don't worry, I am happy to have people's opinion and don't take it personally. Of course an event like this dents the ego and confidence as much as the panels, but I think in my 'defense' I have to point out that there were two mitigating circumstances going on. One was the absolute conscious thought of not letting the outside tyres get onto the grass and causing a rapid hard left hand turn to the inside wall. This was a very clear and pervading thought as I was going through this. We have seen plenty of video or been at the track when this has happened. Generally presents a worse result than the one I experienced. So as I started to lose it to the right I was very much trying to straighten the car up. Of course this may have produced an over reaction based on my concerns of the inside wall. I'm sort of happy that at least I was thinking while this was all unfolding in beautiful 'Surround sound You 'R' There 3-D'. You can throw in 'Scratch and Smell' there too if you like!
The other thing was that previously when I've had a loss of traction on the circuit due to too late braking or just too fast into a corner you have the advantage of all the friction between tyres and tarmac. With this one I had grip, then no grip. So there was very little chance of keeping it on the road surface. I'm sure a pro would have handled the situation a lot better than me, but it's only when you get into these situations that you are confronted by whatever is in your artillery. If you don't have the moves then it's hard to consciously pull them out. Instinct is ok but experience and knowledge is better.
To add, with the extra rubber and springs when they do give away it's just faster. (900/1100) If I'm honest, I wasn't entirely convinced that we'd got really close to setting the car up yet. All we'd done is go in with certain bump and rebound settings, taken the rear sway off as the car was too taily with it. We'd made some minor adjustments to the rears and went out again. The car was feeling a little nervous or jittery even in a straight line in the morning. It was a bit better during the ill fated session. There was still a lot of work to be done.
Just a damned shame to get this far and bin it first time out. Took a lot of time, money, effort and now we're back quite a few places. Like playing Snakes and Ladders!
Onwards!
04-23-2012, 02:40 AM
#504
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Want to see it done again?!? Note that the car started to come around and I got it to keep going straight down the track – backwards. That really lengthened the amount of asphalt I could use and the car slowed down until it was time for me to get out of the way!
BTW – the other important part of the proper way to crash it to understand that the brakes only slow the car on asphalt - so all the time/space you use up sawing at the wheel is asphalt that could have been used to slow the car.
BTW – the other important part of the proper way to crash it to understand that the brakes only slow the car on asphalt - so all the time/space you use up sawing at the wheel is asphalt that could have been used to slow the car.
I'd have been in hospice care! BTW!
04-23-2012, 02:54 AM
#505
Basic Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
j/k glad you are ok, anything you need let me know they are some freight companies that charge around $ 400.00 to Australia for a full pallet, you'll get 25% off of anything that you want.
04-23-2012, 02:58 AM
#506
Race Car
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: TEXAS
Posts: 4,247
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Theres that slow spin I talking about. Perfect example. And thank you Chris. I definitely took something from that.
i will never tell you to push the limits of my car! lol. no seriously, I did learn something in ADDITION to that.
i will never tell you to push the limits of my car! lol. no seriously, I did learn something in ADDITION to that.
04-23-2012, 03:00 AM
#507
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
that and the fact that the car was build with the steering and shifter on the wrong side, they probably inverted the clutch, gas and brakes pedals as well.
j/k glad you are ok, anything you need let me know they are some freight companies that charge around $ 400.00 to Australia for a full pallet, you'll get 25% off of anything that you want.
j/k glad you are ok, anything you need let me know they are some freight companies that charge around $ 400.00 to Australia for a full pallet, you'll get 25% off of anything that you want.
04-23-2012, 03:12 AM
#508
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks for those clips Chris. Wish I had of had a bit more tarmac and friction to utilise. A slow spin is fine if you have a straighter bit of track. This is at the fastest part of the circuit and a long 90o bend. I was a fair way into 6th gear and probably doing 110mph+ through there. A lot of momentum wanting me to go to the rhs of the track, especially with a sudden slippery surface. I think the only thing I could have done in hindsight would have been to pull the wheel hard left as to rotate the car. When it let go there really just wasn't time to straighten things up on the road with little adjustments or by pushing down on the gas pedal. I was going off to the right hand side no matter what. What I'd like to know is what would have happened had I rotated the car? That's the uncertainty in my head and obvious concerns about flipping the car. These are the things that should be taught as much as car craft etc. To add, they are spending what amounts to no small fortune on this track however I suspect that they will leave changing or upgrading the known areas of concern either to the end or not at all.
04-23-2012, 03:43 AM
#509
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Two things,from watching racing. 1. More pavement, less grass. 2. More pavement, less gravel. Tires do bad **** on both. ...and softer barriers.
04-23-2012, 03:46 AM
#510
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Yes, less grass more tarmac. I wish....
Note the 1:50 mark. Going a bit slower but the car should have rotated. Easy catch. More recently...not so much.
Note the 1:50 mark. Going a bit slower but the car should have rotated. Easy catch. More recently...not so much.