spammajamma

by too many M3's and others.
Are our cars suited to autocross? seems that boost was lacking (as well as my skills) most o the BMW's were getting 37-40 secs around the track but my fastest was 41.86 sec.
Any advice for getting my speed up or reducing times?

Scott H

Autocross is usually dominated by cars with a lot of low-end grunt. Anything you can do to bring the boost on sooner and harder will help you, but you're already starting at a disadvantage with the turbo-4 vs the larger displacement I6s of the Bimmers.

400hp944

It's not your car. It's not your boost. It was your first autocross. Don't worry about "other cars" and their times. Work on your lines and smoothness. Most of all, have fun. A 914 with 90hp and a seasoned driver would probably kill those guys in the M3.

User 52121

Well you're definitely at a power disadvantage in a 951 vs. an M3... you have to fight the turbo lag, you don't have the low-end punch (like Scott H said), etc.

It's possible to be competitive, just not easy. I autocross my car, have been doing autocross/DE/racing for quite a few years now... and it took me about a year before I started to really figure the car out and get my times down consistently to be running with the front-runners in the club.

If this was your first AX *ever* - then just give it time. It's not as easy as it looks... there are probably lots of places where you can trim seconds off your time without any changes other than your driving. Keep at it. Does your region allow ride-alongs? If so, take someone more experienced with you for a pass... and hop in the passenger seat of someone who is cutting good times. You'll learn a lot.

Some tips (that apply to ANY car)

1) Stay close to the cones - the further away from the cones you are, the longer you're making the course
2) Keep momentum up. Look for ways to carry more speed in the corners
3) Brake less, and brake earlier - you don't make up time on the brakes. Too many people try to run it DEEP on the brakes and then PLOW through the turn.
4) Brake straight, then get OFF the brakes and turn.
5) Be deliberate in your actions. TURN the steering wheel. WHACK the brakes.
6) Shift as little as possible. The time you gain by downshifting to 1st and then going back to 2nd is often lost in the time it takes to complete the shifts.
7) Don't be afraid to let the car slide a little. (Note I said "a little". Doing a "drift king" around the course will only be a slow time)

The tough thing to learn with the 951 is to predict the turbo lag. With #2 above, if I know I'm coming into a slow turn but I don't want to downshift, I'm floored before I even enter the turn - so that by the time I come out, I'm starting to make power.

Here's some on-board of me in my 951 at PCA-Chicago events:


This was a tight course, the very first course I've run where I was successful (faster) going down to first gear for a section. Otherwise I left it in 2nd. Note my right knee at 0:20 in the video... I'm floored before I even start to turn in so the car starts to pick up speed by the time I'm headed straight. Note I also have the Rogue A-Tune software in my car which makes a pretty big difference in low/no-boost power. I had the 5th fastest time for the day. FTD was a high 33 by a guy in a VERY well set up '73 (?) 911 S-T... he's also a VERY good driver. 2nd fastest was a guy in a Cayman S w/PDK (PDK helps a LOT) with a 34.9, 3rd was a '98 C2S with a 35.3, 4th a '10 997S with a 35.51, and then me with my 35.52.


This course was fast and well-suited to the 951. I held FTD for the first half of the day, and IIRC (this was a few months ago now) finished 3rd fastest overall. Keep speed up, let the car slide/drift just a little bit (0:19 for reference.)

For a different perspective - here's a side-by-side of me and my wife, same course, same car, each our best time:


I get a better start than she did. I let the car slide a little at 0:23 which let me carry more speed. (My wife is still new to AX and very new to driving my car, so she's still working up to getting comfortable letting the car slide a little.) Then note the turn I'm approaching at 0:32 - I kept my speed up and made a wider arc through there than she did - she made it a tighter turn and as such lost a bunch of speed. If I break the video down into turn-by-turn... those 3 elements are really the only major differences. The start, the slide, and the turn at :32. The start probably made the least difference... the other two have a cumulative effect on the rest of the run though.

User 52121

This too.

There is a guy in our region with an '83 944 N/A. He usually ends up only about 1 second behind me... and he has 100 less hp than me and *infinite* turbo lag

I would look more for improvement in time throughout the day for your first couple autocrosses. Race against yourself - try to take time off from your first run to your last.

racerxrick

I'll look forward to watching your vids when i get home Jim! (blocked at work)

knfeparty

I would definitely get some more seat time before I worried about the car! 944s are great at autocross but the NA's are more competitive for SCCA in E Stock than the turbos are in their class, which I believe is B Stock.

I had a blast autocrossing my NA 944 and learned that it's all about lifting the gas to get the tail to rotate then rolling on and holding the gas down to keep the rear end planted.

VWaddict

I began auto-crossing mine very enthusiastically within a month of getting it.

My times and technique improved gradually. I find that the turbo is at a slight disadvantage to something like an S2 ("infinite turbo lag" isn't so bad when your static compression is higher to begin with), but that the driver really CAN make all the difference. There's at least one S2 driver who could still kick my *** if we swapped rides, and it's THAT knowledge, and the determination to learn more, and -inch by inch- become a better driver, which spurs me on.

I usually find myself laughing and hooting like a teenager by the time I'm at the end of the lap... it's just so much fun!

The 944 design doesn't rotate quite so 'snappily' as a boxster; I analogise the difference in mid-engine/mid-transmission versus front-engine/rear-transmission to different approaches to balancing a 10oz lump of plasticine on a drumstick... you can put the lump in the middle and still have it balance in the middle, or you can split it up and put 5oz on each end. -Both ways balance statically, but dynamically they behave very differently when you try and 'twirl' the drumstick.

While the Boxster's lower polar moment of inertia means that it can rotate with less resistance, and that might be a help in an autocross "knife-fight-in-a-phone-booth", it' can be viewed as a disadvantage compared to the 944 chassis in high speed sweepers, where the "lump-at-each-end" philosophy produces a more 'stable' chassis, which is less 'twitchy'.

Of course, I'm only an enthusiastic amateur, and I'm not a physics professor, but that's how I look at it, and it seems to describe how I experience a difference between the two chassis' characteristics fairly well... but I'm very open to correction.

I really need to get this back on the autocross track sometime soon... I miss it!

The 951 presents an entertaining challenge in terms of 'anticipating' the onset of boost... The grin on my face when I happen to "get it right" is just silly!

Keith

Van

I was just at an autocross yesterday... I did pretty well, but didn't reach the times the Cayman Ss were doing... Some cars are just better than others.

However, if this was just your first time, more practice is what you need:

400hp944

Does the organization or club you're racing with have instructors available? Since you are new to autocrossing or racing in general, I would request an instructor. They can be invaluable! Out here, the Porsche Club and Porsche Owner's Club (POC) both require you to have instructors with a minimum amount of seat time to get signed off. The POC does not run autocrosses, only bigger tracks. You're hooked now man. Enjoy!

95ONE

Hang in there. Its your first autocross. You have a LOT to learn. let instructors ride with you. Ride in other peoples cars etc. You will learn much from that alone. In time you will see what you could not at the start.

Could be the video, but it looks like some troublesome understeer.

Van, It looks like you late apexed every cone. Try to be turning around those cones by the time your door is at them. It almost seems counter intuitive while driving, but it IS faster.

This is my only video in the Porsche, but I have a decent amount of experience in Autocross. I won my class in 1999.. Street tire A stock in my 1991 NSX.. Dont think that was easy because of the car!.. Dead wrong. Terrible autocross car. Great Road Course car though. So, I beat the crap out the the NSX to force it around. The gearing alone was so horrible.. 1s to second was like shifting from first to 3rd in any other car. (they fixed the gearing prob with the 6 speed in 1996) And If i wasn't above 4500rpm at any point, i might as well had a T88 turbo on there.

ok.. any way. back to the 951. Just look at the first slalom and see how I'm turning towards the next cone before I'm halfway past the current one. I carried good speed this third time around, but I then over ran the 90 deg box at the end. The start was soft, but I had to turn the boost all the way down so i wouldn't blow the tires out with excessive spin. The start had a hard left while accelerating So I started softly.
I kept trying to go around this one section the wrong way, so I had my friend just call them all out. I still hit a cone, (which messed up my rhythm after) Here is the autocross again. camera hard drive took a dump near the end. watch in 720p.. its much clearer.

Van

I see what you're saying - I'll try that next time (if I can remember all the way to next spring...)

Rich Sandor

As others have mentioned, it was your first autocross. You are a ROOKIE. I can get in your car and go 2-3 seconds faster than you, probably more. (I have been hosting PCA-CWR region autocrosses for almost 10 years.) In fact, if there are some experienced autocrossers in your club that also have a 951, or have had them in the past, ask them to drive your car or ride with you for pointers.

Second, a lot depends on the course layout. I make a lot of different courses, some favour the 951 more than others. A 951 can easily have FTD if it has the right tires, suspension, and the course is open enough. But it's hard to beat a stock Miata, Corvette, or S2000, if your 951 is also stock.

spammajamma

thanks for the input. more racing..check, experienced copilot...check, not worrying about others times...check, taking advice from rennlist...priceless

Cole

FWIW...I have a little more practice at it than you do (also happen to have taught it since 1992).....and you know where I live

Pay for my entry fee and I would be happy to coach all day long at the next autocross. We should both run your car so that you can compare my times to yours in the same car. (I would say we can run my car but mine drives much different than yours) it. Also gives you a chance to see the course more and see/feel it driven.


I spent a day racing with Jordan in his NA car last year.


Since everyone posted an autocross video. Here is mine, in my Cayenne at last years PCA autocross. I beat 27 of the 49 cars there and EVERY. 944/951, (which all happen to be on race rubber too)