fc-racer

Just wanted to remind you guys how awesome your cars are. Now that mine is sold, it's so damn hard to find something to replace it with. I've always wanted a 911 Turbo so I'm going to buy a 1991 911 Turbo, but the performance leaves a lot to be desired. Its performance is on par with a stock 951S. Chipped, the 951S destroys this car.

I've been doing research into the C2 Turbo. I was hoping to leave it stock for reliability purposes (I want to track the car frequently and drive it on the street). To equal the performance of my chipped 951S, I'll need to increase the boost from 0.7bar to 1.0bar and add a fuel device, about US$1000 for the setup. For that, I get 310hp and 340ft-lb torque at the wheels. But who knows how long the engine will last

You get a heck of a lot of performance for your dollar in the 951S. I bought my car for C$28k 5.5 years ago, drove the heck out of it, spent about C$25k on maintenance and consumables, sold it for close to what I bought it for after adding 80k km.

In comparison, the C2T is about C$65k + $7k in mods just to get the suspension/tires/boost to the same level as my 951S and you still are stuck with the CIS engine management (can you even call mechanical fuel injection engine management?).

So anyway, don't take your very cool cars for granted.

fc-racer

Pacman

Farzaan,

Have you found a C2 turbo yet???
If so, what are the details on the car(color, mods, etc)?

James

aka 951

Not to be rude, but some of your assumptions are simply incorrect...

1) A stock C2 turbo (91) will tear a stock 951S a new butt hole in standing start acceleration. Nobody gets stock 951Ss to do mid 13 second 1/4 miles that I have ever met

2) With simple mods the C2 will produce much more hp than a 951 with simple mods(3.3L v. 2.5L - it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out)

3) The 911 has a much better weight distribution for acceleration

4) You can't beat the looks of a 911 Turbo

5) If you liked your 951S so much why did you sell it?

fc-racer

Erick, your post has really rubbed me the wrong way. I will try to stick to the facts, rather than rudeness.

Firstly, you make an assumption that performance, as defined by myself, is standing start acceleration. Unless you are a drag racer, standing start really is not really "performance". If I wanted your definition of performance, I'd go buy a Viper. Performance to me is the ability to get around a racetrack in a certain amount of time. I'm not sure what your experience is and I do not want to discredit anything you've done, but I spend a lot of my time on racetracks and in those environments, it's really, really tough to beat a 944 Turbo S.

You may have not met a person who has run a mid 13 second 1/4 mile on a stock 951S, but it is possible. A stock 951S runs about 100-102mph in the 1/4 mile which is easily good for mid-low 13's with a good launch and perhaps some dramatic wear to the clutch. I know because I drag race cars too. I have a 12 second 4 cylinder 2.0L. In the same token, a stock C2T runs about 13.5 @ 105mph stock. It is quicker than the 944TS, no question, but then gearing and aerodynamics takes over.

Secondly, I'm no rocket scientist, but the jist of my message, which also did not take a rocket scientist to understand, is that the 951S gives you a lot of bang for the buck. For example, a stock 951S suspension has a much better sporting feel to it than does the C2T. To make the suspensions equal in feel, I need to move up to a RUF suspension or something from the aftermarket. The 951S, I could leave stock and run competitive lap times. As for displacement, that really makes no difference, people have made 1500hp engines out of 1.8L 4 cylinders so I don't agree with you there at all. There are far more variables than displacement for engine power capabilities.

Thirdly, the 911T has a better weight distribution for drag racing, but not necessarily for road racing or even street driving.

I want to make it clear that I'm not knocking the 911T, heck, I'm dropping C$70k to buy one, but it isn't the giant that the 911 world makes it out to be. I tell facts, I don't look at brochures or what C&D or R&T get out of the car, I look at them in the real world, with real drivers behind the wheel. I look at lap times, repeatability, etc. I personally prefer the 40/60 weight distribution as it more closely relates to my kart racing background.

Looks are subjective, both the 911T and the 951S have their virtues, I like them both.

Finally, why did I sell my 951S? Well, I don't think that's any of your business really. But, since I'm writing this anyway, I sold it because I had it for 5.5 years and raced it during that time. I felt that I had reached the maximum level of the car and myself and wanted a new challenge. I was going to buy a 993 Twin Turbo but the deal fell through and I haven't found another at that price since. I've always liked the body of the older 911 Turbos and they are quite a challenge to drive, so why not?

fc-racer

fc-racer

Hi James,

I have found one, it's a midnight blue metallic 1991 Turbo. The car is completely stock right now, even sits at 4x4 ride height. Here's a pic that has been digitally modified to make it lower :



I was a bit leary (sp?) about the colour, but have gotten to really like it now as it hides some of the ugly black rubber surrounds used on the wing, etc.

What do you think? My 951 is parked next to it.

fc-racer

Dan87951

FC-Racer,
You will probably have another 951 in your lifetime. I can guarantee it@ Anyways that 911 turbo sure is beautiful! Wow I wished I had 70k to spend. I'd either get a 993TT or a Lotus Esprit V8. Good Luck with your search.

fc-racer

C$70k = Canadian $70k = US$43.75k. We call it Monopoly money here

fc-racer from Canada where a US citizen can buy something for $10, give $20 and get almost $20 back

IceShark

LOL! He rubbed me the wrong way also, so glad you took care of it with a well thought out response.

We are not quite as bad as you on derogatory currency names - Canuck Peso is the term used most often. Being a border state (MN) we sometimes get Canuck dimes and quarters back as change. If you have nothing else to do that day, you then raise a ruckus about how 7-11 just stole from you with worthless metal, demand the cops get called, etc.

If the clerk isn't playing with a full deck in the IQ department, it can get pretty strange.

Geoffrey

Farzaan,

The C2 Turbo looks awesome, I really like the blue color. Just to add my $.02, I have a 1989 930 Turbo that has been highly modified with a Motec management system + dynoed at 521hp. I have to say that any 951, S or otherwise is perhaps my favorite car to drive. They are perfectly balanced, extreemly fast when slightly modified and as long as you keep with the maintenance they last a long time.

A 930 in stock form is a rather wimpy automobile IMHO the engine has 282hp in US form and the suspension is so soft that the car has odd handling charachteristics. The major limitation of the 930 is the CIS fuel injection. Even with the bolt ons (Turbo, IC, Exhaust) you are looking at 350 RWHP which is nothing to laugh at. However, CIS is known to be unreliable when modified, especially on the older models where the components are 15 to 20 years old already. One component failing results in lean condidion and BANG! Time for a rebuild. The engine itself is almost bulletproof, it is the fuel management that causes the problems.

My car has a stock 3.3 bottom end, the heads are ported polished, twin plugged and have cams slightly larger than C2 Cams. With the heads cleaned up I have 6.9:1 compression. I have a large Garrett T04S turbo with a huge Intercooler, custom headers and a Borla exhaust. Most of the money is in the Motec EFI unit which makes the car run as reliably as a Mercedes. I have 10,000 hard miles on the engine with no problems. The previous two owners of the car have records of the engine being rebuilt once each for lean conditions causing a "holed" piston.

Just my thoughts. Have fun, it looks like you found yourself your "Poster Car".

Danno

Any of you remember the June'88 issue of Automobile magazine where they compared a 944 TurboS against the 911 Turbo? In stock trim, the TurboS completely demolished the 911T at Willow Springs by 2-sec/lap! That's pulling away approximately 1 football field each time around. That's significant enough to see 951S pulling away around every single corner and every single straightaway.

And regardless of the price differences, you have more overhead to improve the 951S as well since the water-cooling is more tolerant of engine upgrades.

Luke

I think it is the Holiday season that is preparing us to do battle with family members. I noticed that people are being ignorant all over the place lately.

LOL. Ever time i hear CIS i think of my 86 audi quattro. They are so finiky. The slightest little vaccum leak will keep the car from starting.

I ran a 13.5 on a g tech with stock chips and 3 in exhaust (3 bar regulator) on my 86'.
(violent slipping of the clutch though)

I dont have the track expirience that you have fc but i understand exactly what you are saying (referring to you looking for a challenge)

and for $1,700 i have a modern performance MAF and a larger Garret turbo waiting to be installed. (I have bought guitars for more than that.) Some day i hope to make 320 @ the wheels. I'm not a rocket scientist either but I'll be able to hold my own.

Happy Holidays.

(i hope i dont start blurting out ignorant comments)

IanM

Hi Farzaan,

You've got a very nice car there. Darren had mentioned something about going to the island looking at 911T's, it looks like the search was worth it. I'm the owner of Darren's '89 951, and it's great to hear your critique. I've dreamt of someday owning a 911T, but it's great to hear the scoop from someone who's owned both cars. BTW, I'll be visiting Lowell very soon for some dyno tuning, something I've been looking forward to doing for awhile. I'll post the results when I get them.

fc-racer

We should all go at one time. I'm trying to book a day in early Jan to put the 911 on the rollers and then tune the EVC, fuel enrichment. Darren is also bringing his Supra to tune and Lowell is doing all the tuning work as usual. He has his wideband Motec O2 sensor now so it makes it a lot easier.

Darren's 951 was pretty quick, but we never were able to dial that car in. I think the engine was breathing a bit deep, probably needed to be re-ringed.

Sounds like you've done a lot of work to the car since you bought it, should be a very sweet setup. You should consider joining VCMC Motorsport Club. We have an awesome driving school with national champion calibre instructors, it's only C$90 too. Your 951 is a tricky car to drive at the limit 10/10ths (it's easy at 8/10ths). There will be at least two instructors with championships in their 951's teaching at the April school.

Take care!

fc-racer

Pacman

Farzaan,

It has been a very long day, I just wrote my last exam, so my eyes may be decieving me, but does the script on the back of the car say "Turbo 3.6"???

Regardless, the car looks amazing. I know you were looking for either red or silver, but I think it's a very nice color.

I will be in Van during reading break in Feb, I will probably be harassing you for a ride.

James

fc-racer

Ack, don't tell anyone about the 3.6 decal! I was angry when I saw that, I asked the current owner where the "Type-R" sticker was

I told the dealership doing the PPI tommorow that if I decide to buy it, can they remove the decal and bring the car down on the platters before I even drive it home. They said, absolutely yes

I just ordered a RUF suspension for it, an HKS EVC EZ, Andial Microfueller, Blaupunkt CD127 deck (took me two weeks to find someone with old stock) and some 993 Sport Seats.

I'll keep you guys up to date on the progress and more importantly, how the car compares to the others I've owned and/or raced.

James, I'll give ya a ride anytime, just email me before you come.

fc-racer