Cole

You have no honor, integrity or reading comprehension apparently. You did not actually read what I wrote rather just let your emotions get in the way. Then you toss out all these personal insults. That shows lots of honor

lart951

Cole, I don't want to take this thread out of topic but, as stated by Dana, his wife wants a safe toy for his husband which now happens to be a father, bikes are more dangerous than cars it's a fact, she cares for him and you don't. Now you said that you are a cop and speak out of experience, just to give you a background of the source of my statistics let me put it this way. Cops call me sir, and I am regulated by the brow act.

blade7

Riding bikes isn't dangerous, crashing them is , personally I wouldn't recommend them to anyone dear to me but I get more fun from my GSXR 1000 than any car I've driven, I started riding litre bikes 30 years ago and I found out very early that crashing hurts, I wouldn't ride one in heavy traffic though.

DanaT

Ok, since motorcycle riding is "safe" (and not even get started with riding with a helmet vs without), and we can only talk from personal experience let me show what a simple single vehicle wreck in a controlled environment does.

The bike I was riding was the white one (its an RS125, so only a 37hp "childs toy").





I was on a racetrack (i.e. NO CARS) and simply hit a small bump (for the CO people it was at the Mead track and you may know how good of shape that track was in). It caused a tank slapper and I got the bike straight. I carried too much speed because I couldnt get on the brakes hard enough and high sided the bike. I would estimate speed at the time of the crash at 55-60mph (race bikes dont have speedos). I went down head first.

Here is the result (and if you doubt the damage come on over Cole, I kept the helmet). Yes, I walked away, but I had really deep bruising (like on my knee from the slider) and it was painful for a couple of months.



A minor excursion like this in a car may have resulthttp://forums.rennlist.com/ed in some broken parts. To say that a bike is "safe" is simply showing a bias and reflecting real data.

Here is some information

http://www.iii.org/media/hottopics/i...ce/motorcycle/

The article indicates that motorcycles had 3% for all fatalities yet account for only 0.4% of all vehicle miles. This means that motorcycles, are much more likely to be involved in a fatal wreck. The insurance institute indicates that a motorcycle is 37 times more likely to be involved in a fatality than a car (i dont know how they came to this conclusion).

Anyways, I ride motorcycles and have in the past raced them. I am not anti-motorcycle by any means. But I am also not fooling myself that it is safe. Of course, my latest dangerous sport was skiing.....still recovering from that injury.

-Dana

Cole

I don't mean to insult anyone here, but the reading comprehension failure in this thread is very disturbing.

Does everyone just speed read through posts until they can latch on to a key word to reply to?

I'm not even sure if this is worth restating in a summary format. I think people will just skip through it and argue again.

I NEVER said a bike was "safer" or "as safe" as a car, ever. What I said was that what people "think of" as the biggest threat (cars just randomly running them over) is NOT. Statistically, the biggest danger to motorcyclists is themselves. As proven above by Dana himself in the post above. Roughly 90% of bike crashes are CAUSED BY THE RIDER.(or at least partially at fault do to speeding, drinking, etc)

I pointed out that *MOST* motorcyclists have little to no training(or license), and are irresponsible(speed, do stunts, drink and ride etc). which cause MOST of the crashes.

This all boiled down to one statement that was this: a TRAINED, RESPONSIBLE motorcyclist is RELATIVELY safe. Not safer than a car, not totally safe, just safer than most of the haters make it out to be because they look at raw data and not the broken down facts. Apparently the same people in this thread that don't read all the way through a post. They just see the words "motorcycle" and "safe" somewhere near each other in a paragraph and run with it.

There is more proof of the speed readers above with people that seem to think I am a police officer and are using that point to throw insults, etc.. I clearly stated my profession at the start of the thread. I RETIRED from law enforcement. I tossed that bit in there to give context to the earlier post. I guess context is not helpful if you are not really reading it for the point but rather for nearby words.

If Dana wants to give up his motorcycle for a car that is fine. My only point in the whole thing was that I don't think it is fair to get advice on the motorcycle from non riders. This would be like asking a non horse person if they should get rid of their horse to buy a newer truck. I don't ride horses so of course I think a newer truck would be a fine reason to get rid of the horse.

lart951

Okay, riding bikes is safe until you get involved in a collision of some sort, than the odds in you favor decrease rapidly compared to a similar accident in motor vehicle @ the same speed, that’s my point. In fact I don’t give a damn, is not my life so if you want to become another asphalt coat you are welcome.

I omitted the bloody guts popping accidents out of respect for the site, I just want to show how little or no protection the human body has in a bike collision.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b4cf5cc313
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=56e0fb1d79
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a23_1174177614
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=822_1177022953
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=99d_1174637760
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b07_1190364717


and I love this one

Somewhere in the U.S., Friday, February 10, 2006.

Ironically, the victim in the accident is a professional female bike rider filming a documentary about safe riding.

A blown tire forces the Honda Civic on the left lane [dark vehicle] to accelerate uncontrollably. Realizing he was going to rear-end the white vehicle in front of him, the driver of the Civic instinctively steps hard on the brakes which causes the car to swerve to the right, blocking the biker and consequently causing the crash.

The driver of the Civic can be seen and heard in the footage. He's the big guy wearing a white shirt. The biker can also be heard talking in the video. She couldn't lie down when asked because she says he back hurts.

On the bright side of things, it's nice to see that a lot of people actually stopped and rushed to help the woman.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e18_1185734663

and for some laughs

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fc3a9ccd15


happy new and maybe last year for the smarty riders.

Cole

What is the point to posting any of that Lart?

With the wonders of the internet we can find ANY car, bike , ped etc crash. maybe we should all just stay home and never do anything? Easy to twist anything into a dangerous sport.

Here is one of those super safe 996s.






Or the 951

2bridges

so based on the same logic - without being a crackhead yourself, can you tell that doing crack is an addictive and deadly pastime or you are not qualified?

BAWWWWAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAA

_________________________________

Ok seriously Cole. have read every word of your posts, really. I understand the point you are trying to make, however your statistics simply don't match the real world experiences of the people I know, real people in real incidents.

Your stats claim it rarely ever happens that a bike is hit by a car without a biker being somehow in the wrong. I happen to know three real people (experienced, licensed, responsible riders) with that experience.

So either there is a statistical anomaly by me knowing personally three "almost never happens" Friends and family, or the stats are skewed. I tend to believe the latter.

lart951

I see those accidents and I wonder what would have happened to a bike rider at the same speeds, did you recently noticed a thread by ballistic-Chapman the one about his car been totaled? do you honestly think that a guy in a bike would of survive an accident of that magnitude?

Driver #1 in a motorcycle @ 35mph hits a concrete wall
Driver #2 in a Motor vehicle @ 35mph hits a concrete wall

Who of the 2 have better chances of escaping without injury?

Just answer that, very simple.

lart951

Cole, you are going to need the PO association lawyer to help you out of that one.

Cole

Very flawed logic there. You are taking an illegal activity and comparing it to a legal one. An activity that is 100% harmful, thus it's illegal nature and comparing it to one that is not 100% harmfull.

Yes it is. The answer is that you can't read very well and all YOU want to do is twist and argue. Nothing more to it than that.

You are still arguing that I said it was SAFER, which I NEVER did.

User 52121

Alright I was going to avoid this part of the discussin altogether since it was OT to the original post. But since it's already off topic.... here goes.

My "resume" since it seems to matter here: I've been riding and/or racing motorcycles since I was 12. I'm 32 now. So I have 20 years of riding experience. I've ridden thousands of miles on the street, and easily just as many on the track. I started off racing motocross (at 12), was fairly competent. Moved on to street bikes when I turned 16 (took the MSF course), still dabbled in MX racing up to my early 20s, then moved onto road racing. Have won several club-level "expert" wins. Turned Pro in 2003. Have won several Pro-class endurance races. Earned the FUSA national #7 plate in 2004. Held a ProAMA license, have raced on TV, been interviewed for magazines, etc. In other words, I know how to ride.

For the simple fact that you have no steel safety cage wrapped around you, yes, motorcycles are more "dangerous." For the other simple fact that you are smaller than a car and are therefore less visible... yes, motorcycles are more "dangerous."

However, a competent rider will also know how to overcome those two facts. When they tell you in the MSF class, "Ride like everyone is out to kill you" - that is 100% absolutely true. You learn to make yourself more visible. You learn to pay much closer attention to everyone else. You learn how to predict more accurately what other drivers are doing. Motorcycles can also react and respond MUCH more quickly than a car. If you can't stop in time to avoid that car that pulled out in front of you, then chances are it doesn't matter if you were in a car or not - you'd still hit them. What you should have done was notice that car sitting there waiting to pull out, and prepared yourself for the worst. A competent rider will do that - with EVERY vehicle he encounters. That is not an exaggeration - I truly mean, EVERY VEHICLE YOU ENCOUNTER.

I've been down more times than I care to remember. Most of them thankfully were on the track. But the times I've gone down on the street were at least partially my fault. I had a woman make a left turn in front of me once, left me nowhere to go, and I t-boned her. I was doing the speed limit. I had the right of way. She simply didn't see me, was more distracted with the brats in the back seat (as she admitted this to the police officer), and turned. Sure, I could blame her and the "danger" of motorcycles but the fact is that I should have watched her more closely. There are always clues to what a driver is about to do.

Trust me, for someone who has been riding and racing as long as I have - I've heard it all. I can't go more than a few weeks without someone I work with, someone in my family, or someone I meet on the street feeling the urge to tell me how "dangerous" motorcycles are and how they "know someone" who got really hurt riding one. In the cases where I can coax out of them the details of the accident that hurt their friend/family/acquaintance, I can usually pretty quickly point out where the rider made an error in judgment or otherwise f'ed up. Not to say it wasn't TOTALLY the rider's fault, but it also wasn't totally NOT the rider's fault, either.

So, as far as I'm concerned, motorcycles are really truly only more "dangerous" to someone who DOESN'T take it seriously and is not a truly cautious rider. A rider who DOES take it seriously and adjusts their driving style accordingly, can make up for the two additional risks I brought up at the beginning of my reply. Ride a motorcycle with no more caution than you would a car, and yes, expect that you are more likely to be splattered across the road than when you drive a car. Take the additional risks under advisement, however, and ride accordingly, and IMO your net risk will go unchanged.

blade7

[QUOTE=OmniGLH;
So, as far as I'm concerned, motorcycles are really truly only more "dangerous" to someone who DOESN'T take it seriously and is not a truly cautious rider. A rider who DOES take it seriously and adjusts their driving style accordingly, can make up for the two additional risks I brought up at the beginning of my reply. Ride a motorcycle with no more caution than you would a car, and yes, expect that you are more likely to be splattered across the road than when you drive a car. Take the additional risks under advisement, however, and ride accordingly, and IMO your net risk will go unchanged.[/QUOTE]

Well put, but these days I find my riding is limited to waiting until all the the sunday power rangers have gone home and I get my favourite road to myself, the cars I can make allowances for, someone running out of talent on a crotch rocket coming the other way really scares me.

User 52121

Ah yes, I've met a lot of those over the years. My favorites are the ones who try to "keep up with a racer", or even better, the ones who brag that they "went faster than a racer" down such-and-such road. It's usually not too often after that (if it doesn't happen on the same ride) that they go down. It never occurs to them that, perhaps, it's not that they have more ability than me - it's that I have more common sense than they do. Dragging my elbow in a corner on the street isn't going to prove anything to anyone (anyone that I give a crap about, anyways) and there's no trophy or contingency money at the end... so why bother? Plus it's a little hard to avoid the soccer mom that just pulled out of her driveway when I'm rolling at 10/10ths.

lart951

how is he safe in a collision? This isn't the Matrix you know.