The 951 question...
07-08-2009, 08:40 PM
#76
Rennlist Member
look guys i drive a lot of new fast cars and i mean alot like merc-sl65,sl63, cls550,carrera2,aston db9,nissan gtr,bentleycoupe, all of these and I MEAN ALL OF THESE are fine but costly very costly part of the reason i dont have any and the the buy in is what keeps most of us out of that game
but my cars 88M3,88turboS,86944 turbo are not like the newer cars they are all brutally fast but too refined
my cars have all the hissing and popping clancking that make me FEEL i have cars with ***** and i do a pretty good job of keeping up with those cars till triple digits
but my cars 88M3,88turboS,86944 turbo are not like the newer cars they are all brutally fast but too refined
my cars have all the hissing and popping clancking that make me FEEL i have cars with ***** and i do a pretty good job of keeping up with those cars till triple digits
07-08-2009, 09:06 PM
#77
Track Day
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Van,
To answer your question about working on a corvette, I used to have an auto tech teacher who had random chevy engines lying around. He let us take apart and rebuild them and he has a couple of the LS engines lying around too. Theyre really easy to tear down and put back together.. Most of the bolts are just 9/16ths so you barely have to switch sockets. I'm not sure how different the Z06 engines are but I'd assume it's not too far from that.
To answer your question about working on a corvette, I used to have an auto tech teacher who had random chevy engines lying around. He let us take apart and rebuild them and he has a couple of the LS engines lying around too. Theyre really easy to tear down and put back together.. Most of the bolts are just 9/16ths so you barely have to switch sockets. I'm not sure how different the Z06 engines are but I'd assume it's not too far from that.
07-09-2009, 12:21 AM
#78
Race Director
Sorry guys, But I need to simplify this discussion into something I can relate to a bit more closely to...WOMEN 
All cars serve a purpose, much like all women. Some look great in the beginning but begin to fade and age with time. Some will last forever with little maintenance, some however are very high maintenance. Some are ones that you want because your friends want one. Some are ones that you want because of its looks or performance or personality. Some you have a brief relationship with. Some you stay with forever. Some you want to spend all your time with. Some you can't wait to get rid of. Some you take out to show off and some you only take out for a 2.00am ride to the Quickie Mart (no pun intended).
What I am getting at is you either love these cars or you do not. Some will own them for a few months or maybe a year or so, while others will always have one. The first group typically owns it for the wrong reasons...something along the lines of being able to say "I own a Porsche", then upon realizing the commitment it takes to properly care for and maintain these classics often ditch them in favor of something newer and less maintenance dependent. But that is fine, as these cars were not meant for such people. A 951 is meant to be driven, meant to be raced, meant to be rode hard...meant to be RESPECTED. But along with that premise comes the responsibility to maintain and keep these cars alive, which must be a passion, and a love. Not some fleeting fancy of claiming ownership to look cool.
Are there cars that are faster? ABSOLUTELY
Are there cars that are more comfortable? SURE
Are there cars that are more driver friendly? YOU BET
But none of them, no matter how much spin you put on it will ever carry the same class and character as a PORSCHE 951. Just my .02....
BTW...and as far as a GT3 whipping a '51? Well if I can't beat ya' then I'll damn sure wreck ya
All cars serve a purpose, much like all women. Some look great in the beginning but begin to fade and age with time. Some will last forever with little maintenance, some however are very high maintenance. Some are ones that you want because your friends want one. Some are ones that you want because of its looks or performance or personality. Some you have a brief relationship with. Some you stay with forever. Some you want to spend all your time with. Some you can't wait to get rid of. Some you take out to show off and some you only take out for a 2.00am ride to the Quickie Mart (no pun intended).
What I am getting at is you either love these cars or you do not. Some will own them for a few months or maybe a year or so, while others will always have one. The first group typically owns it for the wrong reasons...something along the lines of being able to say "I own a Porsche", then upon realizing the commitment it takes to properly care for and maintain these classics often ditch them in favor of something newer and less maintenance dependent. But that is fine, as these cars were not meant for such people. A 951 is meant to be driven, meant to be raced, meant to be rode hard...meant to be RESPECTED. But along with that premise comes the responsibility to maintain and keep these cars alive, which must be a passion, and a love. Not some fleeting fancy of claiming ownership to look cool.
Are there cars that are faster? ABSOLUTELY
Are there cars that are more comfortable? SURE
Are there cars that are more driver friendly? YOU BET
But none of them, no matter how much spin you put on it will ever carry the same class and character as a PORSCHE 951. Just my .02....
BTW...and as far as a GT3 whipping a '51? Well if I can't beat ya' then I'll damn sure wreck ya
07-09-2009, 12:40 AM
#79
Nordschleife Master
Sorry guys, But I need to simplify this discussion into something I can relate to a bit more closely to...WOMEN
All cars serve a purpose, much like all women. Some look great in the beginning but begin to fade and age with time. Some will last forever with little maintenance, some however are very high maintenance. Some are ones that you want because your friends want one. Some are ones that you want because of its looks or performance or personality. Some you have a brief relationship with. Some you stay with forever. Some you want to spend all your time with. Some you can't wait to get rid of. Some you take out to show off and some you only take out for a 2.00am ride to the Quickie Mart (no pun intended).
What I am getting at is you either love these cars or you do not. Some will own them for a few months or maybe a year or so, while others will always have one. The first group typically owns it for the wrong reasons...something along the lines of being able to say "I own a Porsche", then upon realizing the commitment it takes to properly care for and maintain these classics often ditch them in favor of something newer and less maintenance dependent. But that is fine, as these cars were not meant for such people. A 951 is meant to be driven, meant to be raced, meant to be rode hard...meant to be RESPECTED. But along with that premise comes the responsibility to maintain and keep these cars alive, which must be a passion, and a love. Not some fleeting fancy of claiming ownership to look cool.
Are there cars that are faster? ABSOLUTELY
Are there cars that are more comfortable? SURE
Are there cars that are more driver friendly? YOU BET
But none of them, no matter how much spin you put on it will ever carry the same class and character as a PORSCHE 951. Just my .02....
BTW...and as far as a GT3 whipping a '51? Well if I can't beat ya' then I'll damn sure wreck ya
All cars serve a purpose, much like all women. Some look great in the beginning but begin to fade and age with time. Some will last forever with little maintenance, some however are very high maintenance. Some are ones that you want because your friends want one. Some are ones that you want because of its looks or performance or personality. Some you have a brief relationship with. Some you stay with forever. Some you want to spend all your time with. Some you can't wait to get rid of. Some you take out to show off and some you only take out for a 2.00am ride to the Quickie Mart (no pun intended).
What I am getting at is you either love these cars or you do not. Some will own them for a few months or maybe a year or so, while others will always have one. The first group typically owns it for the wrong reasons...something along the lines of being able to say "I own a Porsche", then upon realizing the commitment it takes to properly care for and maintain these classics often ditch them in favor of something newer and less maintenance dependent. But that is fine, as these cars were not meant for such people. A 951 is meant to be driven, meant to be raced, meant to be rode hard...meant to be RESPECTED. But along with that premise comes the responsibility to maintain and keep these cars alive, which must be a passion, and a love. Not some fleeting fancy of claiming ownership to look cool.
Are there cars that are faster? ABSOLUTELY
Are there cars that are more comfortable? SURE
Are there cars that are more driver friendly? YOU BET
But none of them, no matter how much spin you put on it will ever carry the same class and character as a PORSCHE 951. Just my .02....
BTW...and as far as a GT3 whipping a '51? Well if I can't beat ya' then I'll damn sure wreck ya
well said sir..
07-09-2009, 01:22 AM
#80
Drifting
Very well said indeed.
What I like a lot is the horsepower:boost ratio from a 951. I've seen Evo's that take more then 30lbs of boost to make 500whp or more. George's car made 530whp at 23lbs? Got to love that part of these cars. To us 951 guys, 16-17 is normal, 18-20 is getting crazy, 21 or more is just insane. It takes a hell of a lot more boost on other turbo cars to make the same power.
A good example of this...there's a black Evo that runs around KC. 576whp at around 40lbs of boost. I can only imagine what that dyno graph looks like if that turbo is fully spooled by even 5k rpm or more.
What I like a lot is the horsepower:boost ratio from a 951. I've seen Evo's that take more then 30lbs of boost to make 500whp or more. George's car made 530whp at 23lbs? Got to love that part of these cars. To us 951 guys, 16-17 is normal, 18-20 is getting crazy, 21 or more is just insane. It takes a hell of a lot more boost on other turbo cars to make the same power.
A good example of this...there's a black Evo that runs around KC. 576whp at around 40lbs of boost. I can only imagine what that dyno graph looks like if that turbo is fully spooled by even 5k rpm or more.
07-09-2009, 01:34 AM
#81
Drifting
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er ....... with capacity differnce like that it's not a fiar conparison at all ...all 2.5's should be be compared to 2.5 wrx's or even 2.5 and 2.6 skylines ..
and as for the 3.0 crowd set your dyno charts down next to some supras or even 300zx's or even turbo M3's honda NSX''s I think you'l find the 951 engine is only special 4 cylender terms and not that special lb for lb or cube for cube ...
and as for the 3.0 crowd set your dyno charts down next to some supras or even 300zx's or even turbo M3's honda NSX''s I think you'l find the 951 engine is only special 4 cylender terms and not that special lb for lb or cube for cube ...
07-09-2009, 08:54 AM
#82
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07-09-2009, 09:02 AM
#83
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cube for cube and pound for pound a 951 needs to make 25% more power then at the same boost to match the evo in specific power ... 288hp per liter times 2.5 is 720hp sorry I've seen a 944 2.5 make 720 hp at even 50 psi ... or a 3.0 944t make 864hp...
07-09-2009, 12:43 PM
#84
Rainman
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sure an evo can make 570HP from 2.0L but it will lag out the *** and also has 4wd and lsd's and tc and stuff to manage all of it...
07-09-2009, 01:33 PM
#85
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Screw peaky high rpm dyno queens...the are obnoxious to drive.
Now compare the torque at 4k rpm of a well built 951 to the other dyno queens numbers.
One of the huge differences of the 951 is that it makes huge mid range torque – and that’s what gets you out of the corners fast! The 951 is not rev happy motor – that’s not its design target.
So go get a dyno chart of the ‘other’ cars and look at the torque curve…..
Now compare the torque at 4k rpm of a well built 951 to the other dyno queens numbers.
One of the huge differences of the 951 is that it makes huge mid range torque – and that’s what gets you out of the corners fast! The 951 is not rev happy motor – that’s not its design target.
So go get a dyno chart of the ‘other’ cars and look at the torque curve…..
07-10-2009, 01:42 AM
#87
Drifting
Chris- Exactly my point. Most cars don't make power until way late, or don't have 3-400lb/ft of torque from 2500 on. Just thing like that.
And let's stop to take note. The evo is 2.0L...but also roughly 15 years AFTER the 951. Now what is your debate? I'm just comparing 4 bangers to 4 bangers. I sure as hell would hope a RB26DET could make more power then your average 951 motor. Does have two additional cylinders...as does the supra and M3. That 4 cylinder to 6 cylinder comparison is more apples to oranges then 2.5L 4 versus 2.0L 4.
I'd love to compare Georges graph and a similar power evo graph. Regardless of motor size, they make the same power. I'd love to see who has more area under their curve.
All my Honda buddies tell me about these 400whp turbo hatches running around, but they also forget to mention they make peak torque at around 6k RPM or so. Maybe even more. And peak power is closer to 7-8K rpm.
Torque will win races for you. I've witnessed my own car do it. Nothing like seeing how much harder my car pulls and all the torque it put down then having someone jump me by a car and then when my car hit 3-4k rpm it was game over.
And let's stop to take note. The evo is 2.0L...but also roughly 15 years AFTER the 951. Now what is your debate? I'm just comparing 4 bangers to 4 bangers. I sure as hell would hope a RB26DET could make more power then your average 951 motor. Does have two additional cylinders...as does the supra and M3. That 4 cylinder to 6 cylinder comparison is more apples to oranges then 2.5L 4 versus 2.0L 4.
I'd love to compare Georges graph and a similar power evo graph. Regardless of motor size, they make the same power. I'd love to see who has more area under their curve.
All my Honda buddies tell me about these 400whp turbo hatches running around, but they also forget to mention they make peak torque at around 6k RPM or so. Maybe even more. And peak power is closer to 7-8K rpm.
Torque will win races for you. I've witnessed my own car do it. Nothing like seeing how much harder my car pulls and all the torque it put down then having someone jump me by a car and then when my car hit 3-4k rpm it was game over.
07-10-2009, 03:56 AM
#88
Rennlist Member
While I agree in sentiment, I've also seen first hand some very quick 16v Honda Civics at the track doing some really good times. Again a fairly tight track, and I can't swear that these guys didn't run a huffer under the hood, but I don't think so. I always thought our mid range punch was the strong suit of the 951 motor. Be good to see some dyno graphs of some of the bigger motors in here.
07-10-2009, 04:01 AM
#89
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I've gone head up with a mk3 supra with a big turbo on it and he couldn't keep up until he hit 4 or 5k rpm's. After that it was dead even. I've also raced my friend's e36 m3 from a red light and he was beat so bad he went and bought a m5.
07-10-2009, 02:13 PM
#90
Drifting
There can be some pretty mean N/A civics no doubt. I've seen one hand a 350whp evo it's *** on a silver platter. It was a pretty serious car and had a lot more then motor work done. I have ridden in my buddies H22 EG Hatch and it handled like it was on rails no doubt, but it had quite a bit done to the suspension, where as our cars can do it stock. Then again, entry price into these cars is vastly different. FWD hondas can handle, but not my cup of tea. I love the front engine/rear trans layout. It must work if Chevrolet still uses it, even on the ZR1!