The 951 question...
07-06-2009 | 01:12 PM
#46
Burning Brakes
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Blown hits bingo! Car enthusiasts are sorta like ducklings, they imprint on something at the pivotal stage in the development of their interest that's where they roost. I followed sports car racing religiously from the late 1960's to the late 1980's when business and family finally got my attention.
Thus the blister fenders, boosted muscle and Germanic feel of the 951 represents the last stop on the bus line for me. Brit iron is too primitive...muscle cars, too brutish...Japanese GT's too much like Godzilla flicks....Alfas and Lancias built with channel locks and screw guns.
Signed, Goldilocks
PS My current daily driver is a serene, box stock, low mile 1994 W124 E320 Benz Coupe in businessman's blue. See above.
Thus the blister fenders, boosted muscle and Germanic feel of the 951 represents the last stop on the bus line for me. Brit iron is too primitive...muscle cars, too brutish...Japanese GT's too much like Godzilla flicks....Alfas and Lancias built with channel locks and screw guns.
Signed, Goldilocks
PS My current daily driver is a serene, box stock, low mile 1994 W124 E320 Benz Coupe in businessman's blue. See above.
Last edited by TheRealLefty; 07-06-2009 at 05:06 PM.
07-06-2009 | 01:16 PM
#47
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I love my 951 - but I think some of you guys are selling the modern cars a little short...
I continue to be amazed how fast and good my 996 is in street trim compared to my 951 in track trim.
The 951 was a great car in it's day - one of the best. But it's day has passed. However, because of my personality, age and finances, I like "living" in that day - that's why I keep, maintain and race my 951!
If I had the money to spend and replace it with a GT3 cup, someone here on rennlist would get a fabulous deal on a 944!
I continue to be amazed how fast and good my 996 is in street trim compared to my 951 in track trim.
The 951 was a great car in it's day - one of the best. But it's day has passed. However, because of my personality, age and finances, I like "living" in that day - that's why I keep, maintain and race my 951!
If I had the money to spend and replace it with a GT3 cup, someone here on rennlist would get a fabulous deal on a 944!
07-06-2009 | 01:19 PM
#48
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From: NAS PAX River, by way of Orlando
07-06-2009 | 01:24 PM
#49
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BTW, for those wondering, 951's NEED to be driven EVERYDAY! I swear to God that they fall apart if they sit in one place too long. That's from personal experience. The engines expand and contract a good bit. If they don't get a good heat cycle daily, **** starts to happen. No Bull****.
07-06-2009 | 03:32 PM
#50
Three Wheelin'
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From: Birmingham, AL
I currently drive mine nearly every day. It is definitely more reliable now than when it was the weekend only car. I have had it for over 10 years now, and will probably never sell it. You do not ride in a 951, you wear it. They are just fun to drive. The new ones have way too many electronic gadgets for me. I cannot imagine how expensive it will be to keep one of the new ones running for 25 years. Porsche is very proud of their wiring harnesses and charge accordingly! Just the four ABS cables for mine were almost $500 a couple of years ago.
A boxster S with a 3.8 would be very tempting though.
A boxster S with a 3.8 would be very tempting though.
07-06-2009 | 06:13 PM
#51
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Yep, just like refined sugars – modern cars do all the work for you and make you a fat and lazy driver!
Reality is that computers are much better than humans at many things. We should all give up on manuals and switch to automatics, fully computer controlled throttles (very common) and fully computer controlled brakes (coming very soon – radar based versions already available on MBs…). Almost all high end sports cars have stability management to control handling - in fact the latest generation of stability control in Porsches cannot be completely turned off. If you turn it off and the car senses that you are in trouble it will turn itself back on…
Yep, just like refined sugars…kinda tastes sweet but in the end the driver becomes kinda fat and dumb….just poke at a pedal and let the car figure it out.
Might as well just be a computer game….
Reality is that computers are much better than humans at many things. We should all give up on manuals and switch to automatics, fully computer controlled throttles (very common) and fully computer controlled brakes (coming very soon – radar based versions already available on MBs…). Almost all high end sports cars have stability management to control handling - in fact the latest generation of stability control in Porsches cannot be completely turned off. If you turn it off and the car senses that you are in trouble it will turn itself back on…
Yep, just like refined sugars…kinda tastes sweet but in the end the driver becomes kinda fat and dumb….just poke at a pedal and let the car figure it out.
Might as well just be a computer game….
We can't stop technology. The closest we're going to get to a modern day 944 is the Cayman despite the engine's location. From all reports it's a great car and handles brilliantly, albeit with all the mod cons. Thing is if you can't beat them you might have to join them to a lesser degree. I'm looking at traction control for the next project. I doubt I'll worry about Launch though.
07-06-2009 | 06:40 PM
#52
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Yeah, that's what I was comforting myself with as the GT2s passed me on the track. "You guys have got nothing on me. Give up?"
We can't stop technology. The closest we're going to get to a modern day 944 is the Cayman despite the engine's location. From all reports it's a great car and handles brilliantly, albeit with all the mod cons. Thing is if you can't beat them you might have to join them to a lesser degree. I'm looking at traction control for the next project. I doubt I'll worry about Launch though.
We can't stop technology. The closest we're going to get to a modern day 944 is the Cayman despite the engine's location. From all reports it's a great car and handles brilliantly, albeit with all the mod cons. Thing is if you can't beat them you might have to join them to a lesser degree. I'm looking at traction control for the next project. I doubt I'll worry about Launch though.
07-06-2009 | 07:08 PM
#53
Burning Brakes
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The Boxster somehow failed my template test, never inspired by the proportions, but the Cayman...well, there's a seduction that could make we weak at some point in the foreseeable future. I agree with our Aussie reporter that the Cayman is very much a modern 944 in many ways.
07-06-2009 | 07:56 PM
#54
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My theory is that a modern car from Porsche or BMW could match the upgraded suspension performance while maintaining an acceptable ride. Very few people would be willing to tolerate my car's ride no matter how well it handles. Modern technology provides the best of both without the compromises. This was not possible in the 1970s and 1980s when the 951was designed.
What is the ride like in a Cayman? Isn't it more than a match to a modded 951 in the handling department?
07-06-2009 | 08:41 PM
#56
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It's often difficult to appreciate the 951 ...until you drive something else. In the 4 or 5 years I've had mine, I haven't driven anything that would make me want to sell it. Inconveniences and financial pitfalls aside, the 951 is SO much more than the sum of its parts. One of my good friends has another 951 and two of my friends have e30 318is's; guess who wants to drive who's cars all the time...
07-06-2009 | 08:55 PM
#57
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Blue line is a '99 996 C4 with a factory sport suspension, street tires about about 300 HP.
Red line is my Turbo S race car, dynos with 260 HP at the wheels, solid suspension bushings, escort cup suspension, R compound tires, race pads, etc. It clearly brakes harder (upward peaks on the middle graph) and corners harder (top graph). But the 996 takes it on the straights - and would stomp it if it had the track tires on.
Again, I'm not saying the 951 is bad - I love it. And I love tinkering with it. And I think it was about the best thing you could buy in 1988. But I don't think it's the be-all and end-all that some people make it out to be.
07-06-2009 | 10:20 PM
#58
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^^^apples and oranges.
6 cyl. 4 wheel drive 300hp car vs 4 cyl. turbo, 2 wheel drive 260 hp car.
There are also a number of other, and more modern suspension options, than Escort Cups.
Look up 333ppg333's videos of his car up against a Nissan GTR. His KW's seem quite comfortable keeping up with a car that should walk him all day.
For the comparable price, the 951 can be set up to spank your Carrera, but it will cost a good deal more to get the Carrera to spank your 951.
That's the hook of these cars.
6 cyl. 4 wheel drive 300hp car vs 4 cyl. turbo, 2 wheel drive 260 hp car.
There are also a number of other, and more modern suspension options, than Escort Cups.
Look up 333ppg333's videos of his car up against a Nissan GTR. His KW's seem quite comfortable keeping up with a car that should walk him all day.
For the comparable price, the 951 can be set up to spank your Carrera, but it will cost a good deal more to get the Carrera to spank your 951.
That's the hook of these cars.
07-06-2009 | 10:23 PM
#59
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My 951 with aftermarket Escort Cup suspension handles much better than when the car was stock. However, improved handling came at a price. I feel every bump in the road and car is hard on the internal organs on long trips or bad roads.
My theory is that a modern car from Porsche or BMW could match the upgraded suspension performance while maintaining an acceptable ride. Very few people would be willing to tolerate my car's ride no matter how well it handles. Modern technology provides the best of both without the compromises. This was not possible in the 1970s and 1980s when the 951was designed.
What is the ride like in a Cayman? Isn't it more than a match to a modded 951 in the handling department?
My theory is that a modern car from Porsche or BMW could match the upgraded suspension performance while maintaining an acceptable ride. Very few people would be willing to tolerate my car's ride no matter how well it handles. Modern technology provides the best of both without the compromises. This was not possible in the 1970s and 1980s when the 951was designed.
What is the ride like in a Cayman? Isn't it more than a match to a modded 951 in the handling department?
Notice how few Cayman's are out on the track. If it was that great, they wouldn't be littering the dealers show rooms right now.
07-06-2009 | 10:55 PM
#60
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I think you missed my point - it's not that the 996 is better or anything. It's to state that technology has moved forward. An out of the box 996 is faster than an out of the box 951. So is an out of the box GTR.
With a hefty budget, you can make a 550 HP monster of a 951. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, being able to do that is one of the things that makes it so cool. I race with modified 944s that are faster than factory GT3 cups - but they only make 450 HP.
However, for $40k I could put the 996 into the 660 HP... But why bother? It's an excellent daily driver, and, what my original point was, it's not too shabby on the track either, despite being in street trim.
With a hefty budget, you can make a 550 HP monster of a 951. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, being able to do that is one of the things that makes it so cool. I race with modified 944s that are faster than factory GT3 cups - but they only make 450 HP.
However, for $40k I could put the 996 into the 660 HP... But why bother? It's an excellent daily driver, and, what my original point was, it's not too shabby on the track either, despite being in street trim.