Whisper

I know. I not only wax philosophical, I polish philosophical with a toothbrush and enter it in concours.

Sometimes it helps to get a little abstract, though. Helps us realize that some of the big questions we argue over aren't really even there, much less real questions; they are merely artifacts of our imperfect language and flawed thinking.

Sure, there's no arguing with "I like this". If you like the four-cylinder turbo, then enjoy it in good health. I'm merely debating those who levy flawed criticism at the V8 swap. "It's not for me, because I like the other thing better." is always valid.

I'm looking forward to it. I've driven a fair number of 951s, and some LS1 cars, but never the two together.

Whisper

I'm not even sure what your argument is, here. It's bad because you get more for your money?

If you were to say the exact opposite; "It's a bad idea, because it's too expensive.", then you would have a valid argument. *I* wouldn't find it compelling, but it would be valid.

But calling it cheap is taking a journey into fantasyland. A well-sorted LS swap costs more than the car it goes into.

Let's face it. The 944/51 is NOT an upmarket car, not anymore. It's a good car, a stylish car, a fun and unique car, but upmarket? No, sir, no how. Do you think that 997 owners look at our twenty-year-old beaters and think of us as peers? No way.

In fact, the LS swap makes a 944/51 a lot more "upmarket", since those sneers from 997 owners acquire a certain... hollow... sound when they are delivered from behind.

tone3721

Why dont you chevy lovers, sell your 944's to real enthusiasts, and go buy a vette. Your comparing an 80's high boost 2.5 to a NA V8, of course its more reliable. Compared to a 3.0 on pump gas, and relatively low boost, I really dont see it being that much more reliable. Slightly. A 3.0 can push 4-500 whp on pump gas. If the engine is fresh, should only need belts, and an oil change for a while....if not it probably wasnt built right. Oh but real gearheads only us welfare V8's. LOL PLEASE!!! Did you stumble in here from one of IB's vette forums somehow? Just click back a few times, im sure all the budweiser, mullets, and V8's await you. Stop trying to convince a bunch of Porsche enthusiasts, that they love chevy's.


Tony: I would love to, but unfortunately, im about 600 miles away. Maybe in the not too distant future. In all honesty you will probably win. Not because your equipment out performs me(were about neck and neck there), but because you are admittedly a more experienced track driver than I, and you would have home track advantage.

As far as lag....I love my vitesse, very gradual onset of boost, low lag. Dyno to see just how broad the powerband is soon. Kinda miss the kick in the pants when you wrap it out tho personally.

Whisper

The bozo bit has been well and truly flipped.

tone3721

Pffffffft!!!! I could careless about what some overpriced beetle thinks of me. If I wanted a glorified beetle, I would have just bought one. Personally, I get a kick out of spankin them in my "poor mans" Porsche. Like the cayman s I obliterated the other day, man the look on his face was priceless.

Fantasyland???? LOL, do I need to quote you V8 guys? Your biggest selling point is that its more reliable, therefore cheaper, both installation, and longevity. When really, that isnt always the case.

Go play with your Generic Motor, and inferior winblows operating system. You are obvioulsy a fool who doesnt recognize the power of unix. What time is your virus scan set for today????

Btw: I dont mean this as mean spirited, but you didnt expect to come into a 944 turbo enthusiast forum, **** on our engines, and not catch any flack did you? I bit my tongue for......8 pages?

tone3721

Oh yeah, aint nothing unique about a GM V8.

porshhhh951

I think you need to go have a beer tone. I like v8's just fine and I also like my Vitesse equipped car. Isn't there room for both worlds to co-exist? Both have their selling points.

Whisper

Poe's Law.

tone3721

Yeah in vettes. IMO. Too each there own. This thread was feeling slanted and biased. It has its pro's. They dont outweigh a 3.0 tho IMO.

tone3721

All in good fun bro. Just razzin ya. Seriously tho. 3.0 turbo ownz. Plenty for our cars, on pump gas. Lower boost=longevity in theory. Im at 900 miles so far, if anything like my 2.5's I expect 300k. Ive seem many 200k+ 951 engines still running beautifully, and never even been cracked open since Germany. Too many people buy old worn out engines, then when they fail say oh these engines are ****....I know renegade hybrids has given me the whole shpeel too. Our engines are not ****, keep the boost stockish, and increase displacement, and youll have a very reliable long life engine. What are you scared of timing belts? Water pumps? A fully sorted 951 will give you plenty of miles, not quite as cheaply as a GM V8 will tho, admittedly. Cutting corners for whats "cheap" is not what I signed up for when I bought a Porsche. I think that type of attitude is what makes so many of our cars so badly maintained, the dealer sticker made them think is was dirt cheap to maintain. Not overly expensive(especially if you turn wrenches) but certainly not dirt cheap. If you want cheap German, well, thats why he did VW.

Whisper

You had me going there for a bit. I guess I've encountered too many internet weirdos to have much faith left in humanity.

("8.5/10, would get trolled again.")

I'm sure it does. I've driven 2.5 turbos, but never a 3.0.

I don't think it's fair to compare reliability directly. There's no such thing as a twenty year old LS1. And there's no such thing as a crate new 951 engine. OTOH, from a functional standpoint, a new engine is, well... a new engine, and an old engine isn't.

Not scared. I want moar powahs. Reliability is a bonus.

If I saw it as cutting corners, I'd agree with you. I'm not pulling a 100k mile ls1 out a wrecked Camaro. I'm putting in a new crate ls3.

I think you've misconstrued my intentions. Over the next year, here's what's happening to the car:

Renegade Hybrids kit w/crate new LS3.
New transaxle with LSD and long fifth gear.
Strip, media blast, reprimer, and new show-quality paint job.
New suspension. (Coilovers in the rear? Dual-rate springs? Have not decided.)
New custom wheels.
Interior redone by Paul Champagne.

... You see, I'm not trying to save money. I'm trying to spend it. I'm not averse to dropping a fair amount of cash, but I want to get the most for my money.

I believe that the engine swap offers that.

tone3721

The only strong suit I see the V8 having over a 3.0 is lower cost. If your not concerned with the money your throwing at it so much, build a 3.0, you wont be disapointed. Maybe not a new crate engine, but if built right, might as well be. Im also a boodt junkie so Im bias there.

edit: Of course the V8 is capable of huge numbers with forced induction. With our chassis, and transaxles, anything over 500 is overkill in theory. A 3.0 will do that, not quite as cheap as a GM tho. Like I said, if its not a matter of cheap......

anders44

I spent the day prepping harness for mounting

where did you mount your ECU tony? got any pics?

so far of stuff not connected to engine itself I figure I need, ign wire (pink/whatever) fan relay power, fuel pump power, serial data link, anything else?

porshhhh951

ls3 with cam and bolt ons is worth 530-540rwhp on pump gas with a silly powerband and 100k reliability. I don't know of a 3.0ltr than can produce that. He said he is after power and if he after power the LS3 is hands down the way to go.

tone3721

Actually I dont know if you could consider it a "crate" engine, but the shop at the Porsche museum, in Germany will restore/remanufacture anything older than 10 years. Rebuilt locally, reman from Porsche, or even brand new "crate", as long as its built correctly, what difference does it make?